The Weather what the problem is. I discovered that rumble; I did not know it was going to come. Just asI donot know. . .I mean . .when I heard the rumble I said that’s what I want, it’s perfect, yes. But I tend to be really very experimental in that I start with a premise of a technical or structural sort and we'll see what happens to it. . . .I happen to believe as an artist, that if you start with an interesting form it will fill itself in an interesting way... .if you are reasonably sophisticated personally, knowledgeable or have ideas or opinions or have experiences. . .with these pieces you don’t have to hear the whole to get the structure. It’s certainly not true of music, I mean in Bach you can tell very quickly what the structure is, the structure is available rather quickly. . material, oddly enough, because I can feel you can work off its familiarity, into the kind of acoustical experiments I want to try. WW: What do you think of Gertrude Stein? RK: Great. Um. . I’ve thought a lot about Gertrude Stein, so have you probably. She was a great experimental writer in that she had lots of ideas for working, and the tendency to know her by only one or two of her ideas is a real limita- tion. One was a non-syntactical idea as in the theatrical pieces; one was a repetition idea or slight variation as in “The Making of the Americans.” Another was a sound poetry idea, the great piece there is called ‘“‘Gertrude Stein and her Brother,” where it goes “. . and she did what she did and she did what she did then she did it,” like that. I mean that approaches sound poetry. There were also pieces that were written to imitate natural sounds. .. IW: What kind of relationship does this work (of yours) have with literature? RK: (pause) . . It is literature — what do you mean? (laughing) It cs literature. Its evolution is out of literature. IW: Then why do you call it art then? RK: Ah. . .OK. . .it’s both. Why not be both? I call it audio art because it’s based on audio tape. I also call it literature. I have a great problem with the exclusiveness of categories because I’m obviously interested in melding them. You’ve probably heard this before. . let me try it: categories describe work not people. Which is to say I do audio tapes, I do poetry, I write criticism, I’ve edited anthologies. I am not, I am not, repeat, a poet, an editor, an artist, a writer, a critic. | am a human being who does various things. The reason why I object to those person categories is that you then get involved with these cross- definitions, such as artist’s books or poet’s prose or poet’s audio tapes. I mean defining one thing in terms of another thing. It would seem to me to be very false — for two reasons. One, it confuses issues; what’s the difference between an artist’s book and a non-artist’s book? Secondly, you get into a kind of minor league-ism, which is to say artist’s books shouldn’t be compared with non-artist’s books because they’re artist’s books and other standards don’t apply. No, no — they’re books! And you either do something inventive with books or not inventive, regard- less of where you come from. The final reason, of course, is that it’s restrictive: “what’s a writer like you doing in audio tapes?” Gordon Moore: Do you think your works tell us anything about ourselves or about how we think? RK: About how you hear or can hear — yes. About how you think. . maybe. This work is not essays. I also write essays which are to persuade you or illustrate a certain thought, to exposit. I hope the work talks about possi- bilities of hearing and language understanding. Is that about yourself? If it isn’t, it doesn’t work for you. . .my talking to you is a different kind of experience with a different information. . .Nothing I have played for you today I would call poetry. Stephen Clark: I’d like to ask you a question about the way you seem to listen to your own work. If you listen to Bach or rock music, I mean Bach is a nice movement from rock music, say, into Mozart, and if... . RK: Bach is what?! SC: I said that Bach is a nice transition from rock music to Mozart.... RK: I don’t know how the hell!! SC: Well you haven’t heard this yet. RK: OK. Go on, I’m sorry, I’m sorry... SC: Because there’s a physical relationship that we can set up with the music, that is there’s something rhythmical about it. There isn’t much Bach you can’t tap your toe to all the way through. It’s not true of Mozart; the kind of listening that’s demanded by Mozart is the kind of listening that you’re suggesting in what you call a vertical under- standing of language — that is it’s the ability to listen, if you try to set up a physical relationship with Mozart, by establishing a rhythm in your body, it makes it very diffi- cult to listen to several instruments at the same time. And what you're suggesting by. . .well, I’m intrigued that when . .. want to work more with religious you do your own work, you set upa physical relationship — and I think the work is very strongly that because it’s rhythmical, it’s a kind of mantra, it’s a bit like Gregorian chants, it had that sense of movement. And so what you're demanding on the one hand is that we listen in a non- physical way yet your work demands we listen in a physical way. That’s kind of a big question... . RK: It’s a very shrewd perception and, uh, I’m not on top of it. Hang on a sec. (silence for 3 seconds, then many people laugh) . . .Give the man an ‘A’ and tell him to go on to the next course (laughs). SC: You don’t have to answer the question. . . RK: Yeah. . . .it’s a very shrewd perception. I’m just trying to. . . .you’re right. . . .I guess the only answer Stephen is that they’re both there. . . SC: You don’t have. . . .well, the woman in front of you asked the same question, and you responded to it by saying that the language was a kind of vehicle — which may have been the most unfortunate thing you ever said, I don’t know (general laughter) — because it really makes a separa- tion in your work between how, let’s say, the vertical structure of language works and the other content, which I perceive to be a religious content; let’s take that as a huge category... RK: Yeah. . .yeah, and I guess the only answer I’m going to give you is I start one way but add on the others. SC: No. . .there’s a possibility of a contradiction being in the structure of the work too. RK: I hope it’s not a contradiction. I hope it’s more an increment. But there’s a contradiction in my commentary, as you pointed out, which you guys are feasting on (laughter), which I’m assenting to reluctantly, but assent- ing to nonetheless. . . .. .Ah, anybody want to talk about the weather? The discussions turned to other aspects of hearing and speaking, then Richard Kostelanetz presented two more audio works. Soon afterward he was obliged to return to the SFU Gallery for the closing of his show, which was moving on to Edmonton. X¥ War of the Worlds meets Lord of the Flies O.K. here’s the story. Re: Alternative Studies-Performance and Improvisa- tion. Decision: Too much talk. Assignment: Each person to prepare and present a set of circumstances whereby the group can interact non- verbally. Product: Two groups established through random selection from a hat. Labels read ‘space’ or ‘tribe’. The god of chance is well respected in this venture. Anything can happen. On another level each group has begun to familiarize itself with its rituals and symbols. For the ‘space’ group, computers and other materials for documentation, silver space suits and sleeping cocoons; hallucination regu- latorse:. es The problem is this: The ‘space’ group is new to the environment having arrived by accident possibly through personal interest though at this stage it cannot be ad- mitted. A crash landing of sorts has occurred on a planet already inhabited, and by a group of beings so unlike the ‘space’ group that they resemble savages. (It must be noted that this writer is of the ‘space’ group and therefore may present the tribal group in an incomplete manner.) Object: Both groups are in need of each other. The tribals have slowly been dying off over the last few centuries. Their leaders have made mistakes. They per- haps suspect that the strangers can be of assistance. Those in the ‘space’ group are forced to realize that in this unfamiliar, uncharted area having had no prior navigation by their kind, they cannot survive in isolation. There must be communication — and soon — or death is certain. Report: Some hostility in the air, each group curious of the other. There is no common language as yet. Priority seems to be on understanding not judgment, at the moment on what is, rather than on what is not. ‘WHAT ARE WE DEALING WITH’. Some mistrust, much wonder pervades. ‘Space’ more reserved. Much grunting from tribals, expressions contorted to facial limits. Limits: There can be few when contact is the only choice. Communication or death. X Jamie Klyman Nancy Cogburne a Zo Ses ee a3 Into a Laundromat (A tragedy in three parts) Into a Laundromat (A tragedy in three acts) Jamie Klyman Characters: an attendant — any race, religion, colour, sex, age a customer — any race, religion, colour, sex, age ACT ONE Customer: How much will it cost to clean this? Attendant: What is it? Customer: (holds up) A blanket. Attendant: Five dollars. —Curtain— ACT TWO Customer: How much will it cost to clean this? Attendant: What is it? Customer: (holds up) Ah, it’s either a blanket or a thin rug, I’m not too sure. Attendant: Blankets are five dollars, thin rugs are twenty- five. —Curtain— ACT THREE Customer: How much will it cost to clean this? Attendant: What is it? Customer: (holds up a dachshund puppy) A blanket. Attendant: Five dollars. —Curtain— (sidewalk blues) looking up, cat cries skyscraper eyes, i wink wallabees, sneakers, thongs feet slapping down, and boots, high heels, roots walk away. arms swing round hushpuppies, clarks, espadrilles cat purrs thick heels, eyes twinkle no heels, silent claws SPIKES. and flashing tail. antiseptic eyes what is reality washed out is reality overdiluted seeing an insect water on a window colours tentatively reaching out that swam not knowing if it’s inside away.... or out. only finding the truth Sandra Wiley when it moves beneath your crushing finger. turn my head | ela The Weather what the problem is. I discovered that rumble: I did not know ie was going to come. Just asi donot know. . mean when I heard the rumble I sad that's what I want, i's perfect, yes. But I tend to be really very experimental in that I stare with a premise of a technical or structural sort, and well sce what happens to it...I happen to believe as an artist, that if you stare with an interesting form ie will fill itself in an interesting way. . . if you are reasonably sophisticated personally, knowledgeable or have ideas o ‘opinions or have experiences. . .with these pieces you don't have to hear the whole to get the structure. It's certainly not true of music, I mean in Bach you can tell very quickly what the structure is, the structure is available rather quickly. . . .I want to work more with religious ‘material, oddly enough, because I can feel you can work off its familiarity, into the kind of acoustical experiments Twant to try. WW; What do you think of Gertrude St RK: Great, Um. ..'ve thought a lot about Gertrude Stein, s0 have you probably. She was a great experimental writer hat she had lots of ideas for working, and the tendency to know her by only one or two of her ideas isa real limita tion. One was a non-syntactical idea as in the theatrical pieces; one was a repetition idea or slight variation as in “The Making of the Americans.” Another was a sound poetry idea, the great piece there is called “Gertrude Steit and her Brother,” where it goes “. ..and she did what she did and she did what she did then she did it," like that. 1 that approaches sound poctry. There were also pieces that were written to imitate natural sounds. IW: What kind of relationship docs this work (of yours) hhave with literature? RK: (pause) « . Jt is literature — what do you mean? (laughing) Ie é literature. Its evolution is out of literature. IW: Then why do you cal it art chen? you do your own work, you set up a physical relationship ~ and I think the work is very strongly that because rhythmical, its a kind of mantra, it's a bit like Gregor had that sense of movement. And so what you're ding on the one hand is that we listen in a non: physical way yet your work demands we listen ina physical way. That's kind of a big question. RK: Ie’s a very shrewd perception and, uh, I'm not on cop. of it. Hang on a sec. (silence for 3 seconds, then people laugh) . . Give the man an °A’ and tell him to go ‘on to the next course (laughs) SC: You don’t have to answer the quest RK: Yeah. . . it's a very shtewd perception. I'm just trying to. . » -you're right. . . guess the only answer Stephen is that they're both there SC: You don't have. . . well, the woman in front of you asked the same question, and you responded toit by saying that the language was a kind of vehicle — which may have been the most unfortunate thing you ever said, I don't know (general laughter) — because it really makes a sepa tion in your work between how, let's say, the vertical structure of language works and the other content, which 1 perceive to be a religious content; let's take that as a huge category. RK: Yeah. . yeah, and I guess the only ans to give you is I start one way but add on the others, SC: No. . there's a possibility of a contradiction being in the structure of the work too. RK: I hope it’s not a contradiction. I hope it’s more an increment. Bur there's a contradiction in my commentary, as you pointed out, which you guys are feasting on (laughter), which I'm assencing to reluctantly, but assent. ing to nonetheless. .. .. .Ah, anybody want to talk about the weather? The discussions turned to other aspects of hearing and speaking, then Richard Kostelanctz presented two more audio works. Soon afterward he was obliged to return to the SFU Gallery for the closing of his show, naa Rall = Intoa Laundromat (A tragedy in three parts) Into a Laundromat | (A tragedy in three acts) Jamie Klyman Characters: an attendant ~ any race, 1 ion, colour, sex, age 7 which was moving Curtain RK: Ah. . OK. . J's both. Why not be both? I call it q x - * audio art because it's based on audio tape. I also cal it AcT TWO literature. U have a great problem with the exclusiveness of categories because I'm obviously interested in melding caseaan abi Sates ill Boewto"edaan eH thes categories describe work not people. Which You've probably heard this before. . Jet me try it to say Ldo audio tapes, I do poetry, I write criticism, I've edited anthologies. 1 am not, 1 am not, repeat, a poet, an editor, an artist, a writer, a critic. I am a human being who does ‘Atcendant: What is it? Customer: (holds up) Ah, its either a blanket or a thin rug, I'm not too sure. Attendant: Blankets are five dollars, thin rugs are twenty- War of the Worlds meets Lord of the Flies five. various things. The reason why I object to those person categories is that you then get involved with these cross- Curtain definitions, such as artst’s Books or poet's prose or poet’s : J audio tapes. I mean defining one thing in terms of another O.K. here's the story ACT THREE Re: Alternative Studies Performance and Improvisa Te would seem to me to be very fase — for «wo ms. One, it confuses issues; whats the difference 10%. between an art's bookandanonarti’sbook? Secondly, Decision: Too much talk. you get into a kind of minor league-ism, which is to say Assignment: Each person to prepare and present a set Artis’s books shouldn't be compared with non-ardst’s of circumstances whereby the group can interact non- books because they're artin’s books and other standards verbally Customer: How muuch will it cost to clean this? ‘Attendant: What i i? Customer: (holds up a dachshund puppy) A blanket. Auendant: Five dollars. don't apply. No, no — they're books! And you either do something inventive with books or not inventive, regard- less of where you come from. The final reason, of course, is chat it's restrictive: “what's a writer like you doing in + Do you think your works cell us anything about ourselves or about how we think? Product: Two groups established through random selection from a hat. Labels read ‘space’ or ‘tribe’. ‘The god of chance is well respected in this venture Anything can happen, On another level each group has begun to familiarize itself with its rituals and symbols. For the ‘space’ group, computers and other materials for documentation, silver Cure TRK: About low you hear or can hear ~ yes. About how space suits and sleeping, cocoons; Hallucination regu: (sidewalk blucs) f you think, maybe, This work is not aye. Lalo write tors. - says which are to persuade you or illstrate a certain The problem is this: The ‘space’ group is new ro the _looking wp cat cries thought, to expose. t hope’ the work talks about poss: environment having arrived by accident pessbly through skyscraper eyes i wink ites of hearing and language understanding. Is that personal interest though at this stage it cannot be ad- _wallabees sneakers, thongs tum my head! bout yourself? If ie i't, ie docsn’t work for'you.’.imy mitted. A crash landing of sorts has occurred on a planet feet slapping down, an talking to you isa diferent kindof experince witha already inhabited and bya group of beings like the Boos, hgh ees roo albewny, Aifferene information, Nothing I have played for you ‘space’ group that they resemble savage ms swing rou todayt would callpoceys (must be noted that this water is of the “pace? hushpuppes, cats, espadrilles catpars Stephen Clark: 14 lke to ask you a question about the group and therefore may present the tribal group in an thick he, way you seem to listen ro your own work. Ifyou listen to incomplete manner. no heels, cn : metincin ost wba ett iacitem soeeeeiomlart ‘SPIKES. f SC: I said chat Bach is a nice transition from rock music to Mozart RK: I don’t know how the hel! ‘The tribals have slowly been dying off over the last few ‘centuries. Their leaders have made mistakes. ‘They per haps suspect chat the strangers can be of assistance. Those in the ‘space’ group are forced to realize that in this unfamiliar, uncharted area having had no prior navigation antiseptic eyes what is reality washed out SC: Wellyou haven't heard this yet: by their kind, they cannot survive in isolation. "There Bearley RK: OK. Go on, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Ht bd eomtaunen ont tend bod or dealer ae ‘SC: Because there’s a physical relationship that we can set Report: Some hostility in the air, each group curious ae, ace eee ni up with the music, that is there's something rhyehmical of the other. ‘There is no common language a5 yet. Hae oa at kaelap Irie agile about it. Thee isn't much Bach you can't tap your toe t© Priority seems to be on understanding not judgment, a ee in wah all the way through. It's not true of Mozart; the kind of the moment. on what is, rather than on what is not See eet listening that's demanded by Mozart isthe kind oflitening WHAT ARE WE DEALING WITH". Some mistrust, te an ae that you're suggesting in what you ella vertical under- much wonder pervades. ‘Space’ more reserved. Much ey re standing of language ~ that is i's the ability o listen, if grunting from tribals, expresions contorted to facil pa Yyou try to set up a physical relationship with Mozare, by limi mon establisl in R ps ng a rhythm in your body, it makes it very difft- ‘cule to listen to several instruments at the same time. And what you're suggesting by. ..well, I'm intrigued that when Limits: There can be few when contact is the only choice. Communication or death. X Jamie Klyman