an interview with imothy FindlEy Planet of the Arts had the pleasure of speaking with Timothy Findley and his partner Bill Whitehead while they were in town for the Vancouver Interna- tional Writers (and readers) Festival in October. Headhunter ts his latest novel. Read it. POTA: As an artist and a student of art, I believe that it is important to make the connection between visual art and literature, that artists and writers can learn a lot from each other... TF: [agree fully. POTA: ...and that each makes the other richer. I want to know... I want you to tell me a bit about the artists and writers in Headhunter. TF: Well, let me begin first by saying that when I was in California in the 1950’s and had really given up on the theatre, basically, and was heading for writing, but I had ended up there in a play and had decided to stay, I lived for a long time with three painters in a house in Santa Monica and I made my money as a model at UCLA in the art classes there. That was my first experience of being in the con- stant presence with people who worked with this marvellous silence that painters have - a lot of them turn the music on and stuff, but in themselves, they are utterly silent and it is a silent activity. And watching something being made was wonderful, and I have never recovered from that experience. The artist Julian Slade in Headhunter is, I don’t want to say based on, but he very definitely emerges from Richard Atilla Lucacs, who was a _ student also at Emily Carr. I had the experience... I'd seen reproductions - in very small - of some of his work and had a sense of what he was about, but I had no notion of the overwhelming power or the scale of this guy’s work. And until I was in Calgary -this was not a great time ago, two... BW: 1990 TF: 1990 it was. I was doing a book tour, and I'd been to read at the University, and one of the teachers there is a poet that I have known for some time... Pauline, and [she] said, “You can’t leave this building until I take you to see this extraordinary exhibition” - which was hung in the university art gallery. I turned the corner into this room and I was just literally blown back to the door. The canvasses were gigantic. The series was a series of Skinhead paintings and it was really, in a weird way, it almost made me weep because it was so stun- ningly profound and beautifully accomplished. Now, I have to tell you that Iam a homosexual but T sure as hell ain’t a fascist. That’s the last thing I am. And these Skinheads were very much fascist oriented. And in one of the groups of the sequence of paintings for instance, involved a group of four or five skinheads stripping and forcing a young Jewish boy to perform sex, and humiliating him by doing so. While, as they went through this process, a banner behind them was gradually revealed from canvas to canvas to say “Deutschland uber alles”, which is fully revealed in the last one as the boy is kneeling in front of them. And they gave me an erection, And this was a fascinating situation because... I said this to Pauline - I mean I was able. to say that kind of thing to her- so I said this to her and she said, “You know, I’m having the female equivalent,” and she said “This is really why I brought you.” It is so disturbing to be moved in. this literally central groin, groining- there’s no word- but the groinage of one’s being. And what I learned trom that experience was, I think for me at any rate, I definitely learned this is where the fascist gender begins. And it has to do with the sense of power that comes, emanates from the groin, and that as it builds and as you feed in thoughts, intellectual content, into what’s happen- _ ing, you fill out into this horrifying but very in- charge figure who knows precisely how to domi- nate and how to win through the uses of intimida- tion and power. And through the elimination of anything that stands in the way, - by whatever means. It begins with that sexual impulse and depends on how you build on it. Now, it’s the sexual impulse that is being triggered by some- thing. It isn’t just the sexual impulse period. It is the sexual impulse triggered by something. And that is what I tried to build into what Slade was about - that he also was able to evoke this thing in the society that he is being depicted. POTA: And the writers in the book, yourself and Fagan? TF: Yes, Fagan is an aspect of me. I’ve often thought of using him as my own pseudonym - as a pseudonym. I’ve used him in other work, twice. In The Wars he’s a figure who is quoted. And he is quoted in a story called “Dinner Along the Amazon” - no, “Hello Cheeverland Goodbye.” And it is the name of my own great-great grandfa- ther who came from Ireland in 1840, and was the name taken by my mother’s sister who was schizophrenic, and when she began to write, she took that name. So it’s filled with symbol for me. And as Bill says, I use him whenever Timothy Findley is in danger of pontificating (laughter), because he is an academic and a critic. You can have him say things that it would be dubious if I were saying them simply as Timothy Findley. POTA: What about Lilah. Did you see her as an artist., as a creator or more as a medium, as a canvas? TF: Yes, by all means, but also her reaction. She is an artist. Asa reader she is an artist. Because she literally is able to create whole figures from TF: Among those who struggle with the possibil- ity of madness. But the real motive for doing that was to do with my wanting to draw as wide a circle and as complete a circle as possible. In other words, in a lot of books including the other books I have written, the book is there and it is held out to the reader, and once the reader is in the book it is the reader and the book, and the writer is not included in the criticism of what is being criticized inside the piece of work. I wanted to be sure that it was absolutely clear that I’m part of the problem, and therefore, if you put Timothy Findley into the circle- into the problematic circle, then that is understood. I don’t want to exclude myself from taking responsibility for what’s gone wrong. POTA: What about the darkness and the fear. How do we fight “the horror that has been done in the name of civilization.” How do we move toward the light? TF: I think that we have to imagine more light. It isn’t a question of turning on more lights, because if you simply turn on more lights, that can be a form of hiding too. You glare everyone in the eye, and you can’t see. But I think that imagining what things really do look like and what things could look like in another form of light - the imagination as light itself. That’s what I’m urging and that’s what I believe in. POTA: Which is why you wrote “imagination is a form of anarchy”? ER Ves: S: In your essay, “When you write about this country”, you write, “As a writer, Arthur Miller was there. All there. Whole. And this meant much to me. It was what I wanted to be more than anything I could think of. But of course, I had not yet reckoned on the doing of it - and the cost. The cost for Arthur Miller, of being whole was having to sit in that courtroom.” How you spoke about Arthur Miller was really powerful. I want to know, has there been a cost of being whole for Timothy Findley - for you? TF: Yes, and sometimes it is the kind of cost where you had to sit silent. Some issues which I have addressed, I am willfully misunderstood. Willfully misinterpreted. And turned into a kind of readin'n'writin : lifting them off the page. And that is an art form. POTA: Your characters are so strong. Did you have trouble creating them or like Lilah’s evoca- tions did they come forth from the end of your pen as it touched the blank page? TF: Some did, and some were very hard found. It wasn’t ... I found Kurtz almost alarmingly easy to describe and to explore on the page off the end of the pen. And Lilah herself. It was like being given a gift, that she was there to carry the whole book and evoke everything. It was wonderful... POTA: You introduce yourself as a character. As a psychiatric patient. Do you consider yourself among the mad? enemy of the people which is the last thing I am. In other areas, I am ridiculed. Belittled. It’s made to seem that some of the things I believe in are ridiculously naive. The editor of The Globe and | Mail, for instance, to give you an example, having heard me talking about AIDS at an AIDS benefit, was complaining that I was too idealistic in expect- - ing that something could be done about AIDS. “We can’t solve everything,” was his point. “And it ls ridiculous idealists like Findley who really put a monkey wrench in things by expecting - by hand- ing out the expectation that something good can happen in this situation.’ POTA: So how do you deal with that? an interview with Timothy FindlEy Planet of the Arts had the pleasure of speaking, with Timothy Findley and his partner Bill Whitchead while they were in town for the Vancouver Interna tional Writers (and readers) October. dounter is his latest novel. Read i stival POTA: Asan artist and a student of art I believe that itis important to make the connection between visual art and literature, that artists and writers can lear a lor from cach other. ‘TE: Lagree filly POTA. ...and that each makes the other richer. 1 want to know... [want you to tell me a bit about the artists and writers in Headhunter. ‘TE: Well, let me begin frst by saying that when I ‘was in California in the 1950°s and had really given up on the theatre, basically, and was heading for \writing, but T had ended up there in a play and had decided to stay, [lived for a long time with three zeinters ina house in Santa Monica and I made my money as a model at UCLA in the art classes there. ‘That was my first experience of being in the con- stant presence with people who worked with this marvellous silence that painters have - a lot of them ‘turn the music on and stuff, But in themselves, they are utterly silent and it isa silent activity. And ‘watching something, being made was wonderful, and Ihave never recovered from that experience ‘The artist Julian Slade in Headhunter is, 1 don’t want to say based on, but he very definitely éemerges from Richard Arilla Lucacs, who was a student also at Emily Carr. I had the experience Td seen reproductions - in very small - of some of his work and had a sense of what he was about, but iad no notion of the overwhelming power or the scale of this guy’s work. And until I was in Calgary -this was not a great time ago, tW0.. BW: 1990 ‘TE: 1990 it was. Iwas doing a book tour, and 'd been to read at the University, and one of the teachers there isa poet that,I have known for some time... Pauline, and {she] said, “You can’t leave this building until I take you to see this extraordinary exhibition” - which was hung in the university art gallery. I tumed the comer into this room and I vas just literally blown back to the door. The canvasses were gigantic. The series was a series of Skinhead paintings and it was realy, in a weird way, italmost made me weep because it was so stun- ningly profound and beautifully accomplished. Now, I have to tell you that Tam a homosexual but sure as hel ain’ a fascist. That’s the last thing T am, And these Skinheads were very much fascist oriented. And in one of the groups of the sequence Cf paintings for instance, involved a group of four or five skinheads stripping and forcing a young Jewish boy to perform sex, and humiliating him by doing so. While, as they wept through this process, a banner behind them was gradually revealed from canvas to canvas to say “Deutschland uber alles”, which is fally revealed in the last one as the boy is knecling in front of them. And they gave me an erection, And this was a fascinating situation because... I said this to Pauline - I mean I was able to say that kind of thing to her- so I said this to her and she said, “You know, I'm having the female equivalent,” and she said “This is really why T brought you.” Itis so disturbing to be moved in this literally ventral groin, groining. there's no. word: but the groinage of one’s being. And what I learned from that experience was, I think for me at any rate, I definitely leamed this is where the fascist gender begins. And it has to do with the sense of power that comes, emanates from the groin, and that ast builds and as you feed in thoughts intellectual content, into what's happen ing, you fill out into this horrifying but very in charge figure who knows precisely how to dom nate and how to win through the uses of intimida tion and power. And through the elimination of anything that stands in the way, - by whatever means. It begins with that sexual impulse and depends on how you build on it. Now, it's the sexual impulse that is being triggered by some thing, It isn’t just the sexual impulse period. Its the sexual impulse triggered by something, And that is what I tried to build into what Slade was about - that he also was able to evoke this thing in the society that he is being depicted. POTA: And the writers in the book, yourself and, Fagan? ‘TE: Yes, Fagan is an aspect of me. I’ve often ‘thought of using him as my own pseudonym - as a pseudonym. I’ve used him in other work, twice. In The Wars he’s a figure who is quoted. And he is quoted in a story called “Dinner Along the Amazon” - no, “Hello Cheeverland Goodbye.” And itis the name of my own great-great grandfa ther who came from Ireland in 1840, and was the name taken by my mother’s sister who was schizophrenic, and when she began to write, she k that name. So it’s filled with symbol for me. And as Bill says, use him whenever Timothy Findley isin danger of pontificating (laughter), because he is an academic and a critic. You can have him say things that it would be dubious if ‘were saying them simply as Timothy Findley. POTA: What about Lilah. Did you see her as an artist, asa creator or more as a medium, as a canvas? TTE: Yes, by all means, but alo her reaction. She isan artist. Asa reader she isan artist. Because she literally is able to create whole figures from ‘TR: Among those who struggle with the possibil ity of madness. But the real motive for doing that was to do with my wanting to draw as wide a circle and as complete a circle as possible. In other words, ina lot of books including the other books Thave written, the book is there and itis held our to the reader, and once the reader isin the book it is the readerand the book, and the writer is not included in the criticism of what is being criticized inside the piece of work. I wanted to be sure that it was absolutely clear that I'm part of the problem, and therefore, if you put Timothy Findley into the