thing of a similar ilk without it being,
you know, copying.

POTA; There was a guy who put out a
few books, I don’t recall his name, but
he did paintings and he did wood-
work...

N.B.; Yes, that was Masquerade, by
Kit Williams...

POTA; Yeah...

N.B.: Yes, that’s fifteen years ago...
POTA: Yeah? Wow, I didn’t know it
was that long ago...

N.B.; ...and there was a golden hare
worth ten thousand pounds that was
buried somewhere in England...
POTA: That sort of reminds me of ...
N.B.; The Jukebox... (referring to
Bantock’s latest literary offering The
Egyptian Jukebox, a book wherein the
reader solves a mystery based on
images and stories contained in the
book) =
POTA;...the new one, yeah...

N.B.; Yes, well when I first started to
do the Jukebox I had in mind that
notion of the very difficult visual
search, that would not be solved in
five minutes.

POTA: Um... Well, I though about
going and getting all the books and
going and getting Griffin and Sabine
...1 decide that I wasn’t really inter-
ested in the details as much as where
you come from, what inspires you, and
where you see the things that you see
to do the things that you do.

N.B.; Well, I think the starting point
is really that I trained as a painter,
and I started doing that when I was
fifteen years old. And then for many
years I did book covers and stuff, and
I read a lot of stuff, I read a lot of
other peoples' stuff...I did a lot of
images, but, um...it was always stuff
that was slightly unusual genre, so I
had a freedom in the kinds of images. I
was in one of those strange positions
where I could paint and make a living
at the same time, and my role was in
many ways far more similar to a
painter anywhere between the
renaissance and Rembrandt where the
artist would be commisioned to do a
specific subject and they were given a
whole degree of freedom...

POTA: uh-huh...

N.B.: ...a specific role that was not .
common. So, within that area I could
develop my personal mythology. In the
end what created the base of the
images...that became Griffin and
Sabine, and for all the other books
that I work on...is, ahm...I think most
people don’t get that time to develop
that personalised imagery.

POTA: Yeah, it’s difficult,

N.B.: Because a lot of people working
in the arts field who want to make a
living as a fine artist fence off this
little tiny area, and say,” this is how I
work, this is my style, I use this
technique, this material...”

POTA: Because nowadays it’s so
flooded with technique and style...
N.B.: ...and the gallery then sells that
particular defined person as that
being their area, and they’ ve got no
room for change. Whereas what I
could do was use every material, every
combination of material to keep
playing. It was like I had a twenty year
apprenticeship.

POTA: Yeah! And that really comes
through in a lot of the things that you
do as well, because there are 56 many
aspects to all of them...How would you
relate yourself to a writer of childrens
books?

N.B.: I’ve never been a writer of kids
books, none of my stuff. Even my pop-
ups are released on the adult audi-
ence, and the fact that they get put on

children’s shelves is the discretion of
the bookseller. I mean, having young
children of my own I’ve learned never
to talk down to kids... If I have an idea
I produce it in a way that seems right
for the idea and the publisher chooses
to call it a children’s book, I leave that
up to them to make that kind of
decision. Because all of us are made
up of all ages we’ ve ever been, so at
any given time we’re liable to...flip
into being sixteen years old...I mean
you must know what it’s like yourself
feeling totally grown up and totally
adult, and you meet someone, maybe
you bump into a person that you
really like and you’re behaving just
like a sixteen-year-old; somehow you
just push each other's buttons...and
we do that all the time in different
ages, So I kind of, when I work, allow
myelf to be the age I am at any given
time naturally Jung talks about
there’s absolutely no point in trying to
bring creativity out of intellect

intellect is useful,but creativity comes -

out of play...Play and out of it will
come life and vitality...

POTA: I think a lot of adults get
caught up in that, the line between
adult and child: “...and now I am
twenty-one, I am twenty-five, I do not
go back,,,” And then there’s this idea
that play has got to be this frivilous
thing, if you see a child playing
they’re quite serious about it,

N.B.: Yes, and when I play, I’m really
serious about it, and what comes out
of it is very serious stuff. But the
notion of play in this case is simply
having a good time...

POTA: But, the release that comes
from it, that letting go of your inhibi-
tions and what you want to have
happen...

N.B.:Not having a finished result but
a general expectation of enjoyment...
POTA: Yeah, that’s great...I’m
interested in a lot of similar ideas I’ve
done comics and I’ve done childrens'
books and now I’m sort of lopking at:
things that you’ve done-and other sort’
of art books...well, just throwing that
whole notion of 'book' up in the air,
and what that has to be and what that
should be...

N.B.: And It's a really good time to be
doing that, because publishers are just
starting to say: “Maybe we haven’t
looked at all the possibilities of
books,”, partly because of the threat
of the whole computer industry.
POTA: So I guess that’s the other
thing how do you relate to new
technology of video and interactive
media and computer technology...
N.B.: I like it...I don’t know that
much about it...except that the people
at the sharp end of that are going
crazy to get at the rights to my books,
because they would be a natural
crossover to interactive or whatever
terminology you would use...

POTA: Yeah, interactive is the
buzzword nowadays...

N.B.: Yeah, and these guys look at
The Jukebox and say "well here's an
interactive book, O.k., he must be
thinking on the same level as us, and I
guess in a way I am, but that’s more
by accident than by design.

POTA: Well, that interests me becasue
there’s this idea of print becoming
obsolete and the book becoming a
valued item because our society
throws books away but a hundred
years ago, a book was something to be
absolutely treasured.

N.B.: Well this is interesting because
this is part of the thinking that started
Griffin and Sabine, was to create
something so aesthetically pleasing

that people wouldn’t throw it away.
The danger of doing something like
that is that people are so used to
‘aesthetic’ being something hollow
and it's taken a lot of people some
time to look in the books because
they sort of assumed that they were
light-weight and frivilous. And
they’ ve been surprised to find that

there’s quite a degree of seriousness.

POTA: Where did you get your
inspiration for the story of Griffin
and Sabine?

N.B: Oh, ideas are ten a penny they
really are, and it’s really whether or
not you carry something through or
not. It’s very much like, do you know
what guided fantasies are?
POTA:...guided fantasy...

N.B.: Guided fantasies are tech-
niques often used by therapists
especially with groups, and what you

.do is you say “O.K. I want everyone

to lay down and I’m going to tell you
a story and while I’m telling you the
story I want you to fill in the spaces,
and it may start out something like
this: you’re walking along a road and
you’re approaching a forest...what is
the forest like?” Then, you walk into
the forest, and you come to a
path...what is the path like? So, as
you go down the path you meet with
various things and people have to
sort of, like, go with their first
thought. When you talk to people
afterwards, people who’ve done this
for the first time, you get varying
responses going from those who have

Photographs by Leeta Harding

absolutely no problem whatsoever,
and who get into it and have an image
come into their mind, and they just
allow it to be there. And there are
others who say I can’t do it, and when
you cross-questoion them it turns out
that the reason they can’t do it is
because they’re editing as they go
along. They have a thought and they
dismiss it and then they have another
thought and then they dismiss that.
That is why most people don’t have
ideas and look to someone like me and
say, “Where do my ideas come from?”
So, everyone has ideas, it’s just a
matter of whether you trust them
enough or whether you doubt them or
whether you don’t have the tenacity to
go with them.

POTA: It kind of gets back to that
letting go, that idea of play...

N.B.: Yes, yes exactlly, allowing
something to be. Accepting in fact,
who you are. For istance, if you’re in
a situation like that [guided fantasy |
and you have an erotic thought, do
you allow yourself to go with that
thought or do you, um... let the...
POTA: Things your parents told
you...

N.B.: Or do you let the restrictive
parent come in and say, no, no, no.

ae
Nick Bantock & designer/archeolo-
gist Barbara Hodgson will be talking
about their work on February 7th
from 12:10-1:20pm at Emily Carr
College in room 260.
thing of a similar ilk without it being,
you know, copying.

POTA; There was a guy who put out a
few books, I don't recall his name, but

he did paintings and he did wood-
work

N.B.; Yes, that was Masquerade, by
Kit Williams..

POTA; Yeah.

N.B.: Yes, that’s fifteen years ago...
POTA: Yeah? Wow, I didn't know it
was that long ago...
IN.B.;...and there was a golden hare
‘worth ten thousand pounds that was
buried somewhere in England.
POTA: That sort of reminds me of
N.B.; The Jukebor... (referring to
Bantock’s latest literary offering The
Egyptian Jukebox, a book wherein the
reader solves a mystery based on
{mages and stories contained in the
book) E
POTA;...the new one, yeah.
N.B.; Yes, well when I first started to
do the Jukebox [had in mind that
notion of the very difficult visual
search, that would not be solved in
five minutes,
POTA: Um... Well, I though about
going and getting all the books and
going and getting Griffin and Sabine
I decide that I wasn’t really inter-
ested in the details as much as where
‘you come from, what inspires you, and
‘where you see the things that you see
to do the things that you do.
N.B.; Well, [think the starting point
is really that I trained as a painter,
and I started doing that when I was
fifteen years old. And then for many
years I did book covers and stuff, and
Tread a lot of stuff, Iread a lot of
‘other peoples’ stuf...I did alot of
images, but, um...it was always stuff
that was slightly unusual genre, 60 I
hhad a freedom in the kinds of images. I
was in one of those strange posit
where I could paint and make a living
at the same time, and my role was in
many ways far more similar toa
painter anywhere bet
renaissance and Rembrandt where the
artist would be commisioned to do a
specific subject and they were given a
hole degree of freedom.
POTA: uh-huh.
N.B.:..a specific role that was not
‘common. So, within that area I could
develop my personal mythology. In the
end what created the base of the
images...that became Griffin and
Sabine, and for all the other books
that [work on..is, ahm...I think most
people don’t get that time to develop
that personalised imagery.
POTA: Yeah, it’s difficult,
N.B.: Because a lot of people working
in the arts field who want to make a
living as a fine artist fence off this
little tiny area, and say, "this is how I
work, this is my style, I use this
technique, this material.”
POTA: Because nowadays it's so
flooded with technique and style.
N.B.: ..and the gallery then sells that
particular defined person as that
being their area, and they've got no
room for change. Whereas what I
could do was use every material, every
combination of material to keep
playing. It was ike I had a twenty year
apprenticeship.
POTA: Yeah! And that really comes
‘through in alot of the things that you
do as well, because there are so many
aspects to all of them...How would you
relate yourself to a writer of childrens
books?
B.: I've never been a writer of kids
books, none of my stuff. Even my pop
ups are released on the adult audi-
ence, and the fact that they get put on

yeen the

children’s shelves is the discretion of
the bookseller. I mean, having young
children of my own I've learned never:
to talk down to kids...[F [have an idea
[produce it in a way that seems right
for the idea and the publisher chooses
to call ita children’s book, I leave that
up to them to make that kind of
decision. Because all of us are made
up of all ages we've ever been, s0 at
any given time we're liable to...

to being sixteen years old.
You muist know what it’s like yourself
feeling totally grown up and totally
adult, and you meet someone, maybe
you bump into a person that you
really like and you're behaving just
like a sixteen-year-old; somehow you
{just push each other's buttons.
wwe do that all the time in different
‘ages, So Ikind of, when I work, allow
yell to be the age I am at any given
time naturally Jung talks about
there's absolutely no point in trying to
bring creativity out of intellect
intellect is useful,but ereativity comes
‘out of play...Play and out of it will
‘come life and vitality.
POTA: I think a lot of adults get
‘caught up in that, the line between
adult and child: “...and now Lam
twenty-one, Iam twenty-five, Ido not
‘go back,,,” And then there’s this idea
that play has got to be this frivilous
thing, if you see a child playing

quite serious about it,
snd when I play, I'm really,
serious about it, and what comes out
of itis very serious stuff. But the
notion of play in this case is simply
having a good time..
POTA: But, the release that comes
from it, that letting go of your inhil
tions and what you want to have
happen.
-B.:Not having a finished
1 general expectation of enjoyment.
POTA: Yeah, that's great...I’'m
interested in a lot of similar ideas I've
done comics and I've done childrens!
books and now I'm sort of lopking at
that you've done and other sort

of art books....ell, jst throwing that
whole notion of book’ up in the air,
and what that has to be and what that
should be.
N.B.: And It’ a really good time to be
doing that, because publishers are just
ing to say: “Maybe we haven’t
looked at all the possibilities of
books,” partly because of the threat
of the whole computer industry.
POTA: So I guess that's the other
thing how do you relate to new
technology of video and interactive
media and computer technology..
N.B.: [like it...I don’t know that
much about it..xcept that the people
at the sharp end of that are going
to.getat the rights to my books,
because they would be a natural
crossover to interactive or whatever
terminology you would use..
POTA: Yeah, interactive
buzzword nowaday?
N.B.: Yeah, and these guys look at
‘The Jukebox and say "well here's an
interactive book, O.k., he must be
thinking on the same level as us, and I

and

sult but

the

there's this idea of print becoming,
‘obsolete and the book becoming a
valued item because our society
throws books away but a hundred
years ago, a book was something to be
absolutely treasured.

N.B.: Well this is interesting because
this is part of the thinking that started
Griffin and Sabine, was to create
something so aesthetically pleasing

that people wouldn't throw it away.
‘The danger of doing something like
that is that people are so used to
‘aesthetic’ heing something hollow
and it's taken a lot of people some
time to look in the books because
they sort of assumed that they were
light-weight and frivilous. And
they've been surprised to find that
there's quite a degree of seriousness.
POTA: Where did you get your
inspiration for the story of Griffin
and Sabine?

N.B: Oh, ideas are ten a penny they
really are, and it’s really whether or
not you carry something through or
not. It’s very much like, do you know
‘what guided fanta
POTA:...guided fantasy
N.B.: Guided fantasies are tech-
niques often used by therapists
especially with groups, and what you
do is you say “O.K. Iwant everyone
to lay down and I'm going to tell you
a story and while I'm telling you the
story I want you to fill in the spaces,
and it may start out something like

this: you're walking along a road and
‘you're approaching a forest..what is
the forest like?” Then, you walk into
the forest, and you come to a
path...0hat isthe path like? So, as
‘you go down the path you meet with
‘various things and people have to
sort of, like, go with their first
thought. When you talk to people
afterwards, people who've done this
for the first time, you get varying
‘responses going from those who have

i
:
3
j

absolutely no problem whatsoever,
‘and who get into it and have an image
‘come into their mind, and they just
allow it to be there. And there are
‘others who say I can’t do it, and when
You eross-questoion them it turns out
that the reason they can’t do itis
because they're editing as they go
along. They have a thought and they
dismiss it and then they have another
thought and then they dismiss that.
‘That is why most people don't have
ideas and look to someone like me and
say, “Where do my ideas come from?”
So, everyone has ideas, it's just a
matter of whether you trust them
‘enough or whether you doubt them or
whether you don’t have the tenacity to
‘go with them.
POTA: Itkind of gets back to that
Tetting go, that idea of play...
N.B.: Yes, yes exactlly, allowing
something to be. Accepting in fact,
who you are. For istance, if you're in
‘situation like that (guided fantasy]
and you have an erotic thought, do
you allow yourself to go with that
‘thought or do you, um... let the.
POTA: Things your parents told
you.
N.B.: Or do you let the restrictive
parent come in and say, no, no, no.

‘Nick Bantock & designer/archeolo-
gist Barbara Hodgeon will be talking
‘about their work on February 7th
from 12:10-1:20pm at Emily Carr
College in room 260.