we’re going to have to develop many, many more forms of education. Most of our education derives from providing literacy of a general kind. You know, - how do you get from pastoral, illiterate peasants to the new technology machine minders? Now we’re getting different problems in our society: massive unemployment, massive leisure, so we have to think of other kinds of education. We have to think of education being totally available on a totally lifetime basis. The present formats and systems of education, the traditional ones, are not adequate. We have to develop new forms and | just think that maybe in a very modest way | might try to do one or two things, like in this series. | certainly want to try to make the step, and it’s going to be very difficult in the next series where we’re dealing with two-dimensional systems, because | have to deal professionally with a lot of twentieth century concepts. How do | get those over so that they’re going to be useful to my students, but interesting enough to attract some of the more agile minds of people casually looking at the televi- sion. For instance when | was down in the market the other day | asked a fellow: “Do you mind if | share your table?”, and | put my soup on the table. The man said, “Gee, have we met somewhere before?”, and | said “No, we haven't. No, | don’t think so.” He said, “’'m sure we've met before! God, I’m sure we have!”, and his wife nudged him and she said, “Harry, you haven’t met before. You saw him on television. You know you turned him off to look at Dallas!” J.L.: Really?! Is that what they said? T.H.: (Laughs) Yeah, so sometimes | think there’s maybe fifty people who actually look at that program. | don’t know. But what I do know is that the people who are doing the program, doing the course, are doing some interesting work and they’re coming back with great responses, saying how interesting they find it, and that it’s changed how they look at things and how they experience things. And that’s what it’s all about, you know. J.L.: Do you think these Outreach projects are going to expand internationally, or maybe through- out Canada? T.H.: Well | think they have to expand. Education is the only thing that’s going to provide solutions to the future problems of our society. We don’t want people to suffer because they’re isolated geographically. When you’re reaching the community through television, you’re cutting across any age barriers because everyone can be looking at it. There’s so many people who haven't wanted education, or education was something which they spurned, or they were rejected by education. So, how the hell do we develop some forms of education which are acceptable to more people who are normally kind of drop-outs? Not many people who’ve experienced general educa- tion have had that kind of opportunity one to one. But that’s the form that’s most effective. I’m quite An Interview by E. John Love J.L.: So you would encourage a sort of multi- media, multi-experience format right from Founda- tion up? T.H.: I'd like to have a big board put up in every college that says, “Please, before you attempt to enter the twenty-first century, would you please make sure that you've tried to negotiate at least some significant parts of the twentieth century.”. You know, the artists complain about the scientific morons, and the scientists complain about the artistic apes. A lot of people are not really living in this century yet, | mean they happen to be here, but in terms of concepts and ideas which motivate and affect our society, they’re not even part of their reality. | mean, people do not have an effective education for the most part. The terrifying thing is that they’re being left behind in terms of being able to perceive the forms of reality and the levels of reality. The main reason for understanding the media is because, without under- standing it in terms of what it produces and how it produces, we just become a certain kind of victim. Most students are seeing, obviously, a visual world around them. But what about the other worlds, the world of knowing, and that world underneath, and the world of feeling as well. Modern life throws a tremendous responsibility on the individual, but the systems of education do not help us really adequately to cope with the complexities of modern life and the incredible rates of change that have been taking place. J.L.: What are your views on integration within the college? T.H.: There are always hopes in colleges that the whole thing’s going to be wonderfully integrated; that the painters will be chummy with the graphic design- ers, and the sculptors will be chummy with the media people. And it’s very hard for this to happen, except on a personal and almost idiosyncratic basis. But what you have to do is have an environment where the influence is inescapable. That’s why | wanted the Concourse gallery not just to be a painting place, but to be a place where people could see performance, where people could see video. That’s why we wanted to keep everything together; not be on five different campuses like we were in 1978. When | came here in 1978, | proposed the Alterna- tive studies program. Some people wanted to change the name to Interdisciplinary. | was a bit worried, because Alternative Studies isn’t necessarily Interdis- ciplinary. Interdisciplinary academically suggests that you are working between academic disciplines, like Art and Anthropology, or Art and Science, etc., so | think it was misleading, maybe more so than Alternative Studies. But in any college, in any department, you’ve got to have that nucleus of effective creative develop- ment which in itself will help make radical and more revolutionary attitudes take place. “ [have a dream of paradise as a place where all of the television programs are over an hour long.” sure that we could get people to achieve incredibly high standards. Everybody could be seen to be much more creative. J.L.: There are also developments in inter- active video and tele-communications which could provide links in the future. T.H.: It’s absolutely imperative that we are aware of technological change, and that we do teach our students to cope with the implications of technological change, because there’s no doubt that in the world situation there are some countries which are already beginning to be left behind. It has been said that if countries which are not adaptable cannot meet and reconcile themselves within the context of technological change, within ten years they'll be left so far behind that they'll just be a new disposessed, just another form of the third world. They’ll be a bloody fourth world! We have the same thing in our society, where we as individuals can be left behind. What we have to do is to understand the implications and the prin- ciples involved in the exploitation of the new technology. In order to participate in the reality of NOW, we have to be aware of these implications of change, because if we don’t we’re going to end up being exploited, rather than exploiting these things. > J.L.: Any advice to students or people wanting to study the arts? T.H.: In a way, you would like to give people very particular kinds of advice. What it all comes down to, no matter what level, is really being alive and respon- sive. Of not being negative, and not being apathetic. Of really living your life to the full, because that’s how you’re going to have something to say. It’s no good being an artist if you’ve got nothing to say. That’s much more important than how you say it, because how you say it comes from the need to say something specifically. Art is really about what you react to. You live through experiential situations, and you either respond to that or you don’t. If you have an obsessive re- sponse, then the chances are that you’ll make a creative statement about it. (E.John Love is a third year Inter-Disciplinary student at E.C.C.A.D., presently studying electronics and computers, and interested in Cybernetics in multi-media installations. He has previously taught Computer Art classes, and is currently involved in the production of an instructional television series on Drawing and Visual Language for the Knowledge Network. He is also a regular contributor to Planet of the Arts.) ‘ A \ _. ca \) \wo're going to have to develop many, meny more forms of education. Most of our education derives tom providing literacy of a general kind. You know, hhow do you get from pastoral, literate peasants to the new technology machine minders? Now we're getting diferent problems in our society: mat Unemployment, messive llsure, so we have of other Kinds of education. We heve to think of i very modest way | might try todo one or two things, Ie in tis series. certainly want to try to make the be very dificult In the next ‘over so that they're going but interesting enough toa is of people casually looking atthe televi- ‘lon. For instance when | was down In the markot the ‘and his wife nudged him and sho sa, “Harry, you hhaven’t met before. You saw him on television. You ‘know you turned him off to look at Dall JL: Really2i! Is that what they sale? TH: (Laughs) Yeah, 60 sometimes I think there's ‘maybe ity people who actualy Took at that program. don't know. But what Ido know is that the people who are doing the program, doing the course, are doing some interesting work and they're coming back with great responses, saying hhow interesting they find it, and changes how they look at things and how they experience things. And that’s what I all about, you know. 4.L: Do you think these Outreach projects are going to expand internationally, of maybe through ut Canada? ‘ \, \\ \ CRA KX \ _ \ os “> ‘TH. Well think they have to expand, Education Is the only thing that's going to provide future problems of ur society. We people to suller because theyre Isolated geographically. When you're reaching the community through television, you're cutting wanted education, or education was something Which they spurned, or they were rejected by ‘education. $o, how the hell do we develop some {forms of education which are acceptable to more people who are normally kind of drop-outs? Not ‘many people who've experienced general educe tion have had that kindof opportunity one to one. ‘But that's the form that's most effective, fm quite An Interview by E. John Love 4J.L: So you would encourage a sort of mult- media, mult-experience format right trom Founds- tion up? “TH: Fd tke to have a big board put up in covery college that says, "Please, before you fttempt to enter the twenty-first century, would you please make sure that you've tried to negotiate at feast some significant parts of the twentieth ccentury.”. You know, the atists complain about the ‘clentfic morons, and the scientists complain about the artistic apes. A ot of people are not really ving In {thi century ye, | mean they happen to be here, butn terms of concepts and Ideas which motivate and affect ‘our society, they're not even part of thele really. mean, people do not have an effective education for ‘the most part. The tertying thing Is that they're being loft behind in terms of being able to perceive the forms. ‘of realty and the levels of realty. The main reason for ‘Understanding the media ls because, without under- ‘sanding It In terms of whet It produces and how It ‘produces, we just become a cartaln Kind of vitim. Most studonte are seeing, obviously, « visual world ‘round them. But whet about the other worlds, the ‘world of knowing, and that world underneath, and the World of feeling as. well Modern if throws have been taking place, ‘What ere your views on Integration within the TH. There are always hopes in colleges thatthe ‘whole thing's going to be wonderfully integrated; that ‘the painters will be chummy withthe graphic design- ‘rs, and the sculptors willbe chummy with the media ‘people. And its very herd for this to happen, except on '2 personal and almost idlosyncratic basis. But what {you heve o do Is have an environment where the Infiuence is inescapable. That's why Lwanted the Concourse gallery not ust to be painting place, but to be a place where people could see performance, ‘whore people could see video, That's why we wanted to keep everything together; not be on five different, ‘Campuses lke we were In 1978. ‘When I came here In 1978, | proposed the Altes: tive studies program. Some people wanted to change the name to Interdlscipinary. | was a bit worried, because Alternative Studies isn't necessarily Interdl= clplinary. Interdlsciptinary academically suggests thet {You are working between academic discipl ‘and Anthropology, oF Art and Sclence, ee, ‘was misleading, maybe more so than Alt ive ‘Studies. But in any college, In any department, you've {90 to have that nuclous of effective creative develop- ‘ment which in ttf wil help make radial and more: revolutionary atitudes take place. “have a dream of paradise as a place where all of the television programs are over an hour long.” ‘ure that we could get peopie to achieve incredibly high standards. Everybody could be seen to be much more creative. There are also developments In Intor- ideo end tole-communications which could inks In the foture technological change, because there's no doubt that In the worl atuetion there are some countries ‘adaptable cannot moot and reconcile themselves within the context of technological change, within {on years they'll be left so far bend that they Just be a new dleposessed, just another form of the be a bloody fourth wor same thing n our society, where we as ‘an be loft behing. What we have to do the implications and the prin- ciples involved in the exploitation of the new technology. In order to participate in the realty of INOW, we have tobe aware of those implications of ‘change, because If we don't we're going to end up being exploited, rather than explelting these things. ca 4.L: Any advice to students or people wanting to study the arts? In 8 way, you would Ike to glve people very kinds of advice. What I all comes down to, respon sive. Of not being negative, and not being apathetic. Of really ving your Ife tothe ful, because that's how have something to say. I's no good "you've got nothing to say. That's ‘much more Important then how you say I, beceuse hhow you say itcomes from the need to say something ally about what you react to. You live through experiential situations, and you ether respond to that or you don’t. If you have an obsessive re ‘sponee, then tho changes are that youl make @ (E.Joho Love isa third year student at E.CC.A., presently study Comput ‘and Is currently Involved In the production of an instructional television se Drawing and Visual Language for the Knowledge Network. He s also a regular contributor to Pa the Arta)