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INTERVIEW!

Margot Smith is a counsellor/teacher from
Sir Sandford Fleming College in
Peterborough, Ontario. She was a teacher
at O.C.A. in the early 1970's. Currently she
is on sabbatical in Vancouver, her home
town. She is developing new teaching
methods directed towards non-traditional
learners and she is also working with the
Foundation students on their essays. People
who are interested in talking to Margét
about their writing or her research should
drop in on her in the cafeteria, Wednesdays,
12:10 - 1:30 pm. (See photo)

P.O.A. What about these theories you
have been developing?

M.S. _ It started when I studied Immanuel
Kant. (My favourite philosopher is Kant,
because I see him as somebody who doesn’t
pin you down to anything other than you are
prepared to take on. . .

P.O.A. He is often referred to, especially
in critical journals. What makes him special
for you?

M.S. _ He is a watershed... because he
doesn’t construct any (metaphysical) theories
about the world. Instead, he developed a
way of critiquing and theory about why the
world is the way it is. He changed the
emphasis from “what is real?’ and ‘why is it
real?’ “What exists apart from our
consciousness of it?’ to ‘what do we know?’
and ‘how do we know that we know it?’

P.O.A. It seems to me that different
philosophers come into vogue at different
times. Right now Kant seems very popular. .

M.S. Yes, because we are still ina
skeptical age. And he really doesn’t commit
you to “content”. Hegel, for example, does;

Hegel takes Kant’s theories of ‘how we

Stormé

course it is not as clear cut as all this sounds.

P.O.A. I’m going to concentrate on the
‘felt sense’. Do you think that this is
something that needs exercise? That it grows
and matures with use?

M.S. Yes. And you can’t be sloppy with
it. It needs to be nurtured - used as a fine
discriminator and not just as a coarse screen.
The more you use it, the more it rewards
you.

P.O.A. Is that part of the process of your
communication with others?

M.S. _ Ina way - it’s also a precondition of
my communication. It’s a feeling of fitting
myself into the world. Heidegger talks about
two kinds of understanding: one consists of
objective analysis and the other results from
a feeling of being ‘thrown into the world’.
It’s this second sense and how I ‘uncover/
discover’ myself in my ‘situations’ which I
want to emphasise. That’s why I say that I
am ‘egocentric’ and I organise everything to
me. If, at the moment, I fit into the world
around me - then O.K. If I feel out of place
then I have to move stuff around in my mind
until I can feel as though I fit.

P.O.A. You’ve spent most of your life
researching certain feelings using yourself -
I assume - as the medium to be able to
understand - and in a way you are very much
the same as any ‘artist’...

CES! Geta Ee ee es ees es Me Se a ee
“Meaning connects with our need to communicate with

others. .

. To be able to feel as though we have gotten

across to somebody in their world - that’s one prime

motivation for making meaning.”
22 GES Ce SS ES ss

know what we know’ and he projects them
onto the World. There is a progression
towards perfection in Hegel’s philosophy —
and you have to buy into his values. With
Kant you don’t. (Well, of course, at some
level you do.) But he presents you with an
armature on which to develop your own
“world view’.

P.O.A. Your speciality is with words:
Well — how do you begin to write? If you
work in your medium you must be working
with “content.”

'M.S. - But not primarily in a verbal way - at
least not at first. | am an empathetic/
kinaesthetic learner. I project myself into a

situation or subject that I might want to write |

‘about and ‘feel’ where I fit in that world. I
also use my ‘felt sense’ at every stage of the
writing process, from choosing a subject, to
focussing in, to refining my language. Of

TILL

M.S. You’re right - but Van Gogh, for
example, didn’t keep his paintings inside his
head as ideas. This year was an attempt to
get out of myself. And I’ve still hedged my
bets a bit as far as testing my ideas is
concerned. By picking art students to
communicate with, I’ve chosen people whom
I felt would be interested in this particular
kind of philosophical, intuitive, aesthetic
approach to things. Eventually I have to be
able to make the ideas more generally
accessible.

P.O.A. O.K., What are you thinking
about? What is this theory that you have
been nurturing?

M.S. First of all let me make a statement
about Values. We supposedly live in a
meritocracy (that we get ahead by ‘merit’).
But some people have certain advantages
over other people. One of them is embedded

in our educational system. If you have the
kind of mind which can deal with abstract
thinking comfortably - stay on the theory
level without constantly having to relate
what you are learning to the concrete or your
own experience, then you are going to be
successful in school. Also, your way of
thinking will fit with all the standards of
evaluation which decide if you have merit...
the ‘rites of passage’ for scientists, lawyers,
doctors, etc.

P.O.A. That implies that: a) those who
succeed never get in touch with their feelings
- they separate them out so that ‘feelings’ are
distinct from what they are doing; b) those
who don’t suceed have a whole bunch of
built-in feelings that they don’t understand
either and never get a chance to use. They
even can be at the whim of the media, for
example, which manipulates those feelings
that are never quite understood or able to be
used.

MARGOT SMITH

much interested in ‘how do we and on what
basis do we construct our world views?’

P.O.A. So you are trying to understand
world views at a very personal level.
Certainly, if everybody can create world
views, we may have millions of them. How
would we connect all these?

M.S. It’s all part of communication -
underneath. “My view - does it overlap with -
yours? How?” There is a sort of hidden
conversation that goes on with people... I
also began to feel that there were a limited
number of forms that we all use.

P.O.A. Would forms be like ‘events’ or
like ‘methods’?

M.S. The word ‘medium’ seems to be
clarifying. When we are thinking thoughts
that are more than the simple response to
some stimulus in the environment, we
integrate or organise each thought into

“I am an empathetic/kinaesthetic learner. I project

myself into a situation or subject that I might want to
write about and ‘feel’ where I fit in that world. I also
use my ‘felt sense’ at every stage of the writing

process.”

M.S. Yes. They’ve downgraded
themselves because they have never been
confirmed. I happen to bé an intuitive thinker
who has been confirmed. I have felt a strong
pull in me to confirm those other non-
traditional thinkers. At the same time I have
been developing a clearer and clearer sense
of what the merit is in my approach... What’s
more, what I do is based on what we all do,
just to live in the everyday world in an
organized way. (Hence nobody has a
particular advantage over anybody else).
When I studied Kant, I got a really clear
picture of how we each have our own way of
constructing the ‘world’ that we interact
with. The image I have is of the ‘cat’s cradle’.
The aspects of how we organize the world
are made up of the ‘points’ of tension that
we develop plus the ‘lines’ that connect
these points of tension, and which are the
result of our pulling our hands apart. This is
each our own individual picture, although
the image of a two or more person cat’s
cradle is definitely one worth reflecting on.
Anyway, once you have this image of a cat’s
cradle with it’s own particular pattern, then,
of course, the pattern could change. What
was, in one context, a ‘point’ could at another
contribute to a ‘line’, and vice versa. The

image haunted me - benevolently. It helped

me deal with all the questions of ‘what is
teal?’ and ‘what is not?’ and got me very

' inner events. The ‘inner sense’

something more complex. I feel there are a
limited number of kinds of organisations. I
think there are three. Medium is a good
word for two of them, because they are the
two which are more directly aesthetic - space
and time. The third major (mode) of
organizing is “meaning” - or symbols. This
last is the part we bring to the world because
we are human beings - with all that that
carries with it. But feelings for all three
mediums are there in all of us. The feeling
of being oriented in space is a commonality -
and a very important feeling for everybody-

P.O.A. And the feeling of being oriented
in time?

M.S. _ In your own time, and then, through
space, into common times.

P.O.A. You don’t mean it’s connected to
the clocks either - '

M.S. No, it’s the fact that we recognizse
and develop a ‘self’ through the sequence of
, time, gives
you yourself (as a possibility) and the ‘outer
sense’, space, gives you the world (as a
possibility). Going back to Kant - space and
time are not the relationships between objects
or events, because in order to come to some
understanding of even what an object is
you've got to presuppose time. Space and
time are the conditions of experience.

P.O.A. It seems to me that most of our
world and culture has been using measuring
devices on space and time, that are
superimposed. People don’t really
understand what it is but they can measure it
or quantify it. This says nothing about
quality.

M.S. Right - because that’s the way we
can get a hold of them. Sometimes (often)
those controls begin to have a kind of reality

- the clock sets a time - it shapes the way we
(Cont. on page 9)

TUTTLE

INTERVIEW:

‘Margot Smith isa counselloriteacher from
Sir Sandford Fleming College in
Peterborough, Ontario. She was a teacher
‘at 0.C.A. in the early 1970's. Currently she|
ison sabbatical in Vancouver, her home
town. She is developing new teaching
‘methods directed towards non-traditional
learners and she is also working withthe
Foundation students on their essays. People
who are interested in talking to Margot
‘about their writing or her research should
‘drop in on her in the cafeteria, Wednesdays,
12:10 - 1:30 pm, (See photo)

P.0.A. What about these theories you
have been developing?

M.S. It started when I studied Immanuel
Kant. (My favourite philosopher is Kant,
because I'see him as somebody who doesn't
pin you down to anything other than you are
prepared to take on.

P.O.A. He is often referred to, especially
in ritical journals. What makes him special
for you?

M.S. He is a watershed... because he
doesn’t construct any (metaphysical) theories
about the world. Instead, he developed a
way of critiquing and theory about why the
world isthe way itis. He changed the
emphasis from ‘what is real?" sind ‘why is it
real?” ‘What exists apart from our
consciousness of it?" to “what do we know?
nd "how do we know that we know it?”

P.O.A. It scems to me that different
philosophers come into vogue at different

times, Right now Kant seems very popular.
Ms
skeptical age

you to “content
i

because we are stil in a
And he really doesn’t commit
Hegel, for example, does; |

takes Kant’s theories of how we |

course itis not as clear cut as allthis sounds,

P.O.A. I'm going to concentrate on the

felt sense’. Do you think that this is
something that needs exercise? That
and matures with use?

MS. Yes. And you can’t be sloppy
it, Iineeds to be nurtured - used as a fine
discriminator and not just as a coarse screen,
The more you use it, the more it rewards

P.O.A. Is that part of the process of your
‘communication with others?

M.S. Ina way -it’s also a precondition of
‘my communication. Isa feeling of fitting
myself into the world, Heidegger talks about
‘two kinds of understanding: one consists of
‘objective analysis and the other results from
a feeling of being ‘thrown into the world’
t's this second sense and how I “uncover
discover’ myself in my ‘situations’ which I
‘want to emphasise. That's why I say that I
aim “egocentric” and [organise everything 10
‘me. If, atthe moment, I fit into the world

around me- then O.K. If I feel out of place
then T have to move stuff around in my mind
until can feel as though It

P.0.A. You've spent most of your life
Tassume- as the medium eto

(OES RNR BEE] RET ST TET SGT Sd Fa
“Meaning connects with our need to communicate with

others. .
across to somebody in their

. To be able to feel as though we have gotten

world - that’s one prime

motivation for making meaning.”
SS A SN EG RF

Know what we know" and he projects them
‘onto the World. There is a progression
towards perfection in Hegel's philosophy —
and you have to buy into his values. With
Kant you don’t. (Well, of course, at some
level you do.) But he presents you with an
armature on which to develop your own
“world view".

P.O.A. Your speciality is with words.
‘Well — how do you begin to write? If you
‘work in your medium you must be working
with “content.”

‘M.S. But not primarily ina verbal way - at
least not at first. Lam an empathetic!
kinaesthetic leamer. I project myself into a
situation or subject that I might want to write
bout and ‘feel’ where I fit in that world. I
also use my ‘felt sense’ at every stage of the
‘writing process, from choosing a subject, to
focussing in, to refining my language. Of

M.S. You're right but Van Gogh, for
‘example, didn’t keep his paintings inside his
head as ideas. This year was an attempt to
get out of myself. And I've still hedged my
bets abit as faras testing my ideas is
‘concerned. By picking art students to
communicate with, I've chosen people whom
1 felt would be interested in this particular
kind of philosophical, intuitive, aesthetic
approach to things. Eventually I have to be
able to make the ideas more generally
accessible.

P.O.A._ O.K., What are you thinking
bout? What is this theory that you have
been nurturing?

M.S. First ofall let me make a statement
about Values. We supposedly live in a
meritocracy (that we get ahead by ‘merit’,
But some people have certain advantages
‘over other people. One of them is embedded

in our educational system. If you have the
kind of mind which can deal with abstract.
thinking comfortably - stay on the theory
level without constantly having to relate
‘what you are learning to the conerete or your
‘own experience, then you are going to be
successful in school. Also, your way of
thinking will fit with all the standards of
‘valuation which decide if you have mer.
the ‘rites of passage’ for scientists, lawyers,
doctors, etc

P.O.A. That implies that: a) those who
succeed never get in touch with their feelings
they separate them out so that “feelings” are
distinct from what they are doing; b) those
‘who don’t suceed have a whole bunch of
built-in feelings that they don't understand
either and never get a chance to use. They
even can be atthe whim of the media, for
example, which manipulates those fee
that are never quite understood or able to be
| used.

use my ‘felt sense’ at every
process.”

M.S. Yes. They've downgraded
themselves because they have never been
confirmed. [happen to be an intuitive thinker
who has been confirmed. Ihave felt a strong
pull in me to confirm those other non
traditional thinkers. At the same time T have
been developing a clearer and clearer sense
‘of what the merit isin my approach... What's,
‘more, what Ido is based on what we all do,
just to live in the everyday world in an
‘organized way. (Hence nobody has a
particular advantage over anybody else)
When T studied Kant, I got a really clear
picture of how we each have our own way of
Constructing the ‘world’ that we intera

with. The image have is ofthe ‘cat's cradle
The aspects of how we organize the world

| are made up of the ‘points” of tension that
‘ve develop plus the ‘lines’ that connect
hese pe

result of our pulling

is of tension, and which are the

nur handls apart, This is

each our own individual picture, although

the image ofa tw
| cradle i definitely one worth reflecting on
cradle with it's own particular patter, then,
| of course, the pattem could change. What

| was, in one context, point” could at another

} contribut and vice versa, The

| image haunted me - benevolently. It helped
me deal with all the questions of ‘what is

real?” and ‘what is not?” a

got me very

Fecotteas =
——_ oo

MARGOT SMITH

‘much interested in ‘how do we and on what
basis do we construct our world views?”

P.O.A. So you are trying to understand
‘world views ata very personal level
Certainly, ifeverybody can ereate world
views, we may have millions of them. How
‘would we connect all these?

all part of communication -
undemeath. “My view - does it overlap with
yours? How?” There isa sort of hidden
‘conversation that goes on with people...
also began to feel that there were a limited
number of forms that we all use

P..A. Would forms be like ‘events’ or
like ‘methods"?

M.S. The word ‘medium’ seems to be
clarifying. When we are thinking thoughts
that are more than the simple response to
some stimulus in the environment, we
integrate or organise each thought into

Es EL EE I ES SEN OE SEE RE
| “Lam an empathetickinaesthetic learner. I project
myself into a situation or subject that I might want to
write about and ‘feel’ where I fit in that world. I also

stage of the writing

something more complex. I feel there are a
limited number of kinds of organisations. I
think there are three. Medium is a good
‘word for two of them, because they are the
two which are more dectly aesthetic - space
and time. The third major (mode) of
‘organizing is “meaning” - or symbols. This
Iastis the part we bring to the world because
‘we are human beings - with all that th

carries with it. But feelings forall three
‘mediums are therein all of us. The feeling

of being oriented in space is a commonality
and a very important feeling for everybody.

P.O.A. And the feeling of being oriented
MLS. _In your own time, and then, through

P.O.A,

You don’t mean it's connected 10

clocks either

MS.
and develop a sel

No, it's the fact that we recognizse

through the sequence of
inner events. The ‘inner sense’, time, gives
you yourself (as a possibility) and the ‘outer
Sense’, ives you the world
possibility). Going back to Kant - space and
time are not the relationships between objects
‘or events, because in order to come to some
understanding of even what an object is
you've got to presuppose time. Space and
time are the conditions of experience.

P.O.A. It seems to me that most of our
world and culture has been using measuring
devices on space and time, that are
superimposed. People don’t really
‘understand what it is but they can measure it
or quantify it, This says nothing about
quality

M.S. Right because that's the way we
can get a hold of them. Sometimes (often)
those controls begin to have a kind of reality
= the clock sets atime - it shapes the way we
‘Coat on page 9)