Interview

Michael Lawlor interviews Susan Handwerker

M.—Why does the College need a Women’s Group?
S.— Why? Why not? . . . Generally, to act as a forum for
women’s views: as a vehicle for women to communicate
with each other: to come out of isolation, because when
you are isolated and something happens to you you
don’t know that it’s happening to other people. You
tend to think of yourself as alone and you don’t relate
to it in any other way. When you see things happening to
you and happening to people around you it’s easier to
make connections about the reasons those things are
happening and you don’t always blame yourself then.
Also, to act as an advocate for women’s needs which,
basically, are being ignored by the institution.
M.—What sort of needs do you find being ignored?
S.— There are issues that have been brought up over the
last year, such as the lack of significant role models for
women students. There are some statistics printed, else-
where in this issue, | don’t have the numbers at hand,
but that is a very relevant issue.

Coffee arrived .. . Thank you Stan
M.—Do you feel that you have missed out on opportunities
that men have had in the College because you are a
woman?
S.— That depends on how you define opportunities.
What kind of opportunities are you talking about?
M.—The opportunity to do a certain type of work, to be
listened to in a certain way.
S.— Well, those are different issues. | don’t personally
feel that | have been excluded from any media but that
could have more to do with my personality than other
things. | don’t know. | can only speak for myself in that.
| think that it is generally more difficult for women to
approach the heavy stuff: dealing with metals, dealing
with big machines, because of the lack of exposure when
we were growing up — in the same way that few men
would gravitate to fabric sculpture. It’s the same kind
of relationship. But | don’t think that anyone actively
prevents you. They might make it difficult.
M.—Would you say that it is a case of people seeing the
role and not being able to see through those roles?
S.— | think people have internalized certain expectations
and it is hard, for one thing, to recognize that you want to
break out of them. When | first came here | was a painter.
Had always been a painter. It took me most of last year to
realize that, in fact, | was more interested in making
objects than in doing painting. That was a big struggle,
to know what you want to overcome. Generally, if you
know what you want, you can have it.

As far as forming relationships with different in-
structors, that is a different question. That’s much more
difficult for women students here. There is a way of
being listened to that you don’t get as a general rule.
There are exceptions, and | have managed to find them
for myself, but that is a difficulty. It is very important
as an emerging artist to have a real rapport and dialogue
with someone whose views and work you respect and
who in turn respects your views and your work. And that
is very difficult.

| don’t see a lot of mentor relationships being formed
. . . that‘is also improtant. You see that happening a lot
with the men, much more so, because there is a common
bond of experience between them.

M.—It is easier to develop a mentor situation when your
background has similarities?

S.— Absolutely. | think that, ideally, there should be no
difference, but, in fact, we are not talking about ‘shoulds’.
The reality is that we do have different experiences, we
are raised with different expectations; and that is some-
think we are trying to deal with. It is difficult to bridge
that gap.

In order to make it easier in the future we should try
to think about gender balance as far as the faculty is
concerned to provide equal opportunity for those rela-
tionships.

M.—So essentially that answers the first question, ‘Why
does the College need a Women’s Group?’

S.— Yes. , :

M.—Do you think that the fact that most faculty, staff
and administration at the college are men is a direct
insult to the women of the college?

S.— Who worded that?

M.—I did; very fast on the typewriter.

S.— I'll bet.

M.—Let’s re-word it then. How do you relate to the fact
that most faculty, staff and administration are men and
60% of the students are female?

re

S.— I think the numbers speak for themselves. The men
of the college for the most part, do not actively, con-
sciously perpetuate a terrible belligerance towards women.
| don’t see that at all. What I do see is a lack of conscious-
ness on the part of men to consider the problem; to
consider it an issue worth their scrutiny. They don’t take
it seriously. We are still dealing with a situation where
most of the power positions are held by men. This means
that most of the people doing the hiring, in any institu-
tion, not just this one, are men. As such, they will use the
criteria that they have been conditioned to use by the
expectations that people have had of them when they
were hired. It’s a kind of standing on each others shoulders
that occurs. There is not a whole lot of inner motivation
on the part of men in power positions to consider any-
thing any other way.

M.—So you see it as men who have had male experiences,
and have gotten into the positions they have, not being
willing to break a set way of thinking?

S.— Well, sure . . . Plus, when anybody gets into a power
position, and enjoys it, they have something to protect.
There is a lot of that going on as well.

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Another beginning.

M.—You would say that there is fear involved as well?
S.— 1 would think so. Whether or not it is conscious
is another issue. | don’t think they are necessarily aware
of it, we can’t really make a general statement about that.
But | think that here, in these few buildings that we
call an Art School, a lot of us are really living in the past.
It reminds me of 1962. The attitudes are really astounding
the way they come out.

M.—Most post secondary institutions in North America
have a ratio of more men to women in the student body,
except in post secondary art education programs. Why
is this?

S.— 1 don’t really have any researched or published
information about that, but | can conjecture that tradi-
tionally, in Western society, art, similarily to femininity,
includes and excludes according to it’s mystique. Art is
seen in this culture as being soft. Artists are seen as
generally sensitive and receptive and so forth and so on,
and women in polite society have always had permission
to be accomplished in that way. They have always been
allowed to dabble. | think this is still in effect, although
not as blatantly; but Art is allowed for women, only in
a different way.

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Interview

Michael Lawlor interviews Susan Handwerker

M.-Why does the College need a Women's Group?
S.— Why? Why not? . .. Generally, to act as a forum for
women’s views: as a vehicle for women to communicate
with each other: to come out of isolation, because when
you are isolated and something happens to you you
don't know that it’s happening to other people. You
tend to think of yourself as alone and you don’t relate
to it in any other way. When you see things happening to
you and happening to people around you it’s easier to
make connections about the reasons those things are
happening and you don’t always blame yourself then.
Also, to act as an advocate for women’s needs whiich,
basicaly, are being ignored by the institution.
'M.-What sort of needs do you find being ignored?
S.— There are issues that have been brought up over the
last year, such as the lack of significant role models for
women students. There are some statistics printed else
‘where in this issue, | don’t have the numbers at hand,
but thats a very relevant issue.

Coffee arrived ... Thank you Stan
M.=Do you fee! that you have missed out on opportunities
that men have had in the College because you are a
S.— That depends on how you define opportunities.
What kind of opportunities are you talking about?
M.The opportunity to do a certain type of work, to be
listened to in a certain way.
S.— Well, those are different issues. 1 don’t personally
feel that | have been excluded from any media but that
could have more to do with my personality than other
things. | don’t know. I can only speak for myself in that.
I think that itis generally more difficult for women to
approach the heavy stuff: dealing with metals, dealing
with big machines, because of the lack of exposure when.
we were growing up — in the same way that few men
would gravitate to fabric sculpture. It's the same kind
of relationship. But | don’t think that anyone actively
prevents you. They might make it difficult.
M.-Would you say that it is a case of people secing the
role and not being able to see through those roles?
S.— | think people have internalized certain expectations
‘and itis hard, for one thing, to recognize that you want to
break out of them. When I first came here | was a painter.
Had always been a painter. It took me most of last year to
realize that, in fact, 1 was more interested in making
objects than in doing painting. That was a big struggle,
to know what you want to overcome. Generally, if you
know what you want, you can have it.

‘As far as forming relationships with different in-
structors, that is a different question. That’s much more
difficult for women students here. There is a way of
being listened to that you don’t get as a general rule.
There are exceptions, and | have managed to find them
for myself, but that is a difficulty. It is very important
as an emerging artist to have a real rapport and dialogue
with someone whose views and work you respect and
Who in turn respects your views and your work. And that
is very difficult.

{don't see a lot of mentor relationships being formed

. that's also improtant. You see that happening a lot.
‘with the men, much more so, because there is a common
bond of experience between them.

M.=It is easier to develop a mentor situation when your
background has similarities?

S.— Absolutely. | think that, ideally, there should be no
difference, but, in fact, we are not talking about ‘shoulds’.
‘The reality is that we do have different experiences, we
are raised with different expectations; and that is some-
think we are trying to deal with. It is difficult to bridge
that gap.

In order to make it easier inthe future we should try
to think about gender balance as far as the faculty is
concerned to provide equal opportunity for those rela-
tionships.

M.-So essentially that answers the first question, ‘Why
does the College need a Women’s Group?”

S.—Yes. ,

M.—Do you think that the fact that most faculty, staff
and administration at the college are men is a direct
insult to the women of the college?

S.— Who worded that?

M.-I did; very fast on the typewriter

SI bet.

M.-Let’s re-word it then. How do you relate to the fact
that most faculty, staff and administration are men and
60% of the students are female?

S.— | think the numbers speak for themselves. The men
Cf the college for the most part, do not actively, con-
sciously perpetuate a terrible belligerance towards women.
{don't see that at all. What | do see is alack of conscious.
ness on the part of men to consider the problem; 10
Consider it an issue worth their scrutiny. They don’t take
it seriously. We are still dealing with a situation where
most of the power positions are held by men. This means
that most of the people doing the hiring, in any institu:
tion, not just this one, are men. As such, they will use the
criteria that they have been conditioned to use by the
expectations that people have had of them when they
were hired. It's a kind of standing on each others shoulders
that occurs. There is not a whole lot of inner motivation
‘on the part of men in power positions to consider any.
thing any other way.

M.-So you see it as men who have had male experiences,
and have gotten into the positions they have, not being
‘willing to break a set way of thinking?

S.= Well, sure .. . Plus, when anybody gets into a power
position, and enjoys it, they have something to protect.
There isa lot of that going on as well

M.=You would say that there is fear involved as well?
S.—| would think so. Whether or not it is conscious
is another issue. I don’t think they are necessarily aware
of it, we can’t really make a general statement about that.
But | think that here, in these few buildings that we
‘all an Art School, a lot of us are really living in the past.
Itreminds me of 1962. The attitudes ae really astounding
the way they come out.

M.—Most post secondary institutions in North America
have a ratio of more men to women in the student body,
‘except in post secondary art education programs. Why
is this?

S.=1 don’t really have any researched or published
information about that, but | can conjecture that tradi-
tionally, in Western society, art, similarly to femininity,
includes and excludes according to it’s mystique. Art is
seen in this culture as being soft. Artists are seen as
generally sensitive and receptive and so forth and so on,
and women in polite society have always had permission
to be accomplished in that way. They have always been
allowed to dabble. | think this is still in effect, although
not as blatantly; but Art is allowed for women, only in
a different way

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