torture, because you realize that in order to
achieve it you’re gonna have to go there, wherever
it happens to. be, but you’ve got to go in there and
_be there, because you have to experience it so that
can reach the page intact, with an integrity at its
centre that is undeniable and unquestionable. I
think you’re talking about the really dithcult
sections of the book where things happen to
people that are... And the worst of them was
Eleanor. When I, when Eleanor Farjeon was
killed by her beloved kids, I literally was devas-
tated. And I literally can still remember the
feeling of finishing with that little moment of
seeing her and literally pushing it away from me
like that (gesturing) off to that side of the desk. I
couldn’t have it in front of me any longer...
POTA: How long does it take to recover from...
TF: That would have come at the end of the
work day and I wouldn’t have gone on to any-
thing or over to anything. This is sort of silly
when I look back at this. But this was a long time
ago. I’d killed a character and I knew she was
going to die - this was in a book called The
Buttertly Plague - and this is way back in 1968,
when I was writing it and after she’d died - she
died of cancer on the beach, looking up at the sky,
it’s a very beautiful but sad, sad scene - this

» woman coming to the end of her life in this
extraordinarily beautiful situation - and I could
not work for two weeks, because I had lost a very
good friend. I was in bereavement for this charac-
ter who was purely fictional.

BW: There’s a moment in The War’s when, after
Robert Ross has had to shoot a horse in the hold.
of a ship, the young soldier with him says ” Shall I
light us a lantern, Sir?” and Robert says, “No.
Thank you,” because he’s thinking, “I don’t want
to see his eyes, right at this moment. I don’t want
him to see mine.” Tiff would come down from
writing some of these passages and he would
literally avoid eye contact with me, for awhile.

TF: That’s quite true. I’d forgotten that.

BW: He had to deal with the feelings for awhile
on his own before he came back into the world.
What did Adele Wiseman...

TF: Oh, Adele Wiseman said that this is what
writers have to do. They do it on behalf of other
people. She said, “Your job is to go down into
the pit of hell,” this is her phrasing, “...rummage
around and see what’s there and experience it all
and come back up. And the bad news is you’re
gonna have to tell them what’s there, but the
good news is because you’ve been and come back
with that view, they don’t have to go. The reader
doesn’t have to go, they only have to be told
about it.

POTA: At the end of Headhunter... I had read in
an interview that you had changed the ending.
PLR: -Yepe
POTA: Do you want to talk about... was it
darker?
TF: Oh, yeah. It was totally dark.
POTA: And what made you decide to not [keep
the original ending]?
TF: Well, other people. And I had te really fight
that. I didn’t want to. And I said... it was Bill and
the editor of the book, Iris, and I think one other
person, David possibly, a professor who had read
the book as a courtesy and is a good critic...
They all said the same thing you can’t leave us like
this - in the dark - just totally .” . . .And I thought
but I don’t know how to alter that . . . The way I
did was I said, “Okay. Ill consider what you’ve
said. But I have to find my own way to this.
You're all going to have to go away. No sugges-
tions. No little notes. Nothing, you know. Just
leave me alone.”
BW: It’s important to give Scott a sense of what I
think a lot of people have misunderstood in
hearing that you’d changed the ending - what that
means. And it was a twofold thing. So many of the
storylines ended totally down. Grendel died. The
dog died. The baby was not born. Ollivia’s baby

“ — ar , raat <= 5

was aborted.

TF: ...And there was another killing on the

streets outside the museum.

BW: And another dog died right as she was about
to make her decision.

TF: ...1’m not sorry they made me do this
because I think good stuff came out of it, but it
had to be me that found it.

BW: No good editor tells a writer what todo...
TF: No.

BW: ...the editor asks, “Are you sure that’s
what you meant to do?”.

TF: Or, “Does this satisfy you?” If you say,
Oe

POTA: The first question yesterday was a guy, he .

asked about... he made a connection between
Headhunter and The Wars...

TF: Fagan.

POTA: Fagan. Okay ... How do you feel when
someone makes those... well, first of all, to be
studied. He was obviously very well versed in your
writing.

TE: Yes;

POTA: And asa scholar you haven’t got access to
the writer all the time. How do you feel about
being interpreted that way?

TF: I think it’s very dangerous to pay too much
attention. It’s an honourable profession, and it’s a

very good thing that books are used as tools in
education. And that fiction, especially, is used as a
tool. In Toronto, at Osgoode Hall, on one of the
courses, and this is law, they teach a book of mine
called the Last of the Crazy People in which a little

boy kills his family. And I think that’s wonderfully
creative as a way of using a novel because they use
it in their exploration of the difference between
motive and...

BW: Intent.

TF: ...intent. And they literally throw the novel
at them and say, “Here’s an exploration. Come to
terms with it. Tell us what it means.” For law-
yers. Very creative. I think that’s great. But when
professors... there was one I always use as the
example of why it’s dangerous and also, very
mystifying (laughs). This professor was teaching
his class that The Wars could be summarized with
the letter “r”, is it? Rabbits, Rowena, Robert
Ross, rape. And I thought, “What? What?!” But
then he apparently breaks down the book into all
these sections. Robert Ross is a name and
Rowena, the sister . . . and the rabbits and the rape
and gives a very good, very interesting reading of
the book. But I thought, “I don’t want to know
this. I don’t want to know this. Ever.” And I’m
sorry I did. (Laughs)

~ BW: Did you want to know you were a

postmodernist?

TF: And when... there was a woman called Linda
Hutchins, started writing about postmodernism, I
was chosen as one of the prime examples of what
postmodernism was all about. I was at, by chance,
at a writers’ congress where Linda Hutchins gave a
paper about this and talked about a book of mine
called Famous Last Words as a prime example of
something called “postmodernism”. And I went
rushing home to look up “modernism” and there
was nothing in any dictionary, anyway, in those
days - this is now about eight, nine years ago -
describing postmodernism in any terms whatso-
ever. I hadn’t a clue what she was talking about
and I don’t really think I have yet. I don’t know
what it means. I don’t know what it means.
Because then they talk about postmodernist
architecture.

BW: We find generally academic analysis of a
book has nothing to do with either what the writer
intended or what most readers perceive. It is - ?’m
not saying it’s wrong to do it - but as long as you
realize it is an artificial structure that it being built
up, an intellectual structure that is not connected
to what the art is. It is off to one side. And it just
seems to me it’s rather sad that so much time and
money is put into that kind of lateral interpretation
of a piece of work rather than coming to grips with
what the writer is trying to do.
POTA: Do you find it gets lost, the passion of
the word and the power and the emotion and well,
the moral, the message gets lost with analysis?

TF: Mostly, but not inevitably. There are
teachers... I’ve been to classes where they’ve
revolutionized the students’ imaginations, basi-
cally, and thus their lives, enhancing their response
to reality using books like The Wars. There was
one senior class at a high school where all the
students were cases. And a class had been created
of young men who had fought education, who
were fighting the civilization around them in every
sense - not necessarily all people from the street or
poor people, but real intellectual anarchists - and
they were, for me, electrifying - to listen to them
and to listen to what they had got from reading
The Wars because of the way it had been opened
to them. They never would have even picked it up
if they hadn’t had this particular teacher. And in
those instances, it’s then you think, “Hallelujah.
Do whatever you need to.” - because in a sense it
saves lives, by which I mean reading, not The -
Wars.

by scott scobbie
torture, hecause you realize that in order to
achieve it you're gonna have to go there, wherever
it happens to be, but you've got to go in there and
be there, because you have to experience it so that
can reach the page intact, with an integrity at its
centre that is undeniable and unquestionable, 1
think you're talking about the really difficult
sections of the book where things happen to
people that are... And the worst of them was
Eleanor. When I, when Eleanor Farjeon was
Killed by her beloved kids, I lterally was devas-
tated. And [literally can still remember the
fecling of finishing with that little moment of
seeing her and literally pushing it away trom me
like that (gesturing) off to that side of the desk.
couldn’ have it in front of me any longer

POTA: How long does it take to recover from...
‘TE: That would have come at the end of the
work day and I wouldn't have gone on to any-
thing or over fo anything, This is sort of silly
when I look back at this. But this was a long time
ago. T'd killed a character and I knew she was
‘going to die - this was in a book called The
Butterfly Plague - and this is way back in 1968,
‘when I was writing it and after she'd died - she
dlied of cancer on the beach, looking up at the sky,
it’s very beautiful but sad, sad scene - this

‘woman coming to the end of her life in this

ordinarily beautiful sittation - and I could
not work for two weeks, because I had lost a very
‘good friend. I was in bereavement for this charac-
ter who was purely fictional

BW: There's a moment in The War's when, after
Robert Ross has had to shoot a horse in the hold
fa ship, the young soldier with him says ” Shall 1
light us a lantern, Sir?” and Robert says, “No.
‘Thank you,” because he’s thinking, “I don’t want
to see his eyes, right at this moment, I don’t want
him to see mine.” Tiff would come down from
writing some of these passages and he would
literally avoid eye contact with me, for awhile.

TE: That's quite true. I'd forgotten that.

BW: He had to deal with the feelings for awhile
con his own before he came back into the world.
‘What did Adele Wiseman . .

‘TE: Oh, Adele Wiseman said that this is what
writers have to do. They do it on behalf of other
people. She said, “Your job is to go down into
the pit of hell,” this is her phrasing, “..rummage
around and sce what's there and experience it all
and come back up. And the bad news is you're
gonna have to tell them what's there, but the
good news is because you've been and come back
with that view, they don’t have to go. The reader
doesn’t have to go, they only have to be told
about it.

POTA: Atthe end of Headhunter... [had read in
an interview that you had changed the ending,
TE: Yep.
POTA: Do you want to talk about... was it
darker?
TE: Oh, yeah. It was totaly dark
POTA: And what made you decide to not [keep
the original ending)?
TF: Well, other people. And I had te really fight
that. Tdidn’t want to. And I sad... it was Bill and
the editor of the book, Iris, and I think one other
person, David possibly, a professor who had read
the book as a vourtesy and is a good critic .
‘They ll said the same thing you can’t leave us like
js - in the dark - just totally.” .. And I thought
‘but I don't know how to alter that... The way I
did was I sid, “Okay. T'l consider what you've
said, But T have to find my own way to this,
You're all going to have to go away. No sugges
tions, No litte notes. Nothing, you know. Just
leave me alone.”
BW: Ir's important to give Scott a sense of what I
think a lot of people have misunderstood in
hearing that you'd changed the ending - what that
‘means. And it was a twofold thing. So many of the
storylines ended totally down. Grendel died. ‘The
dog died. The baby was not born. Olivia’s baby

was aborted.
TE: ... And there was another killing on the
streets outside the museum,
BW: And another dog died right as she was about
to make her decision.
TF: ... 'mnot sorry they made me do this
because I think good stuff came out of it, but it
had to be me that found it.
BW: No good editor tells a writer what to do
TE: No.
«the editor asks, “Are you sure that’s

st ou meant to do”.

Or, “Does this satisfy you?” IF you say,
Oe wue
POTA: The first question yesterday was a guy, he
asked about... he made a connection between
Headhunter and The Wars...
TE: Fagan,
POTA: Fagan. Okay .. . How do you feel when
someone makes those... well, first of all, to be
studied. He was obviously very well versed in your
writing.
TE: Yes.
POTA: And asa scholar you haven't got access to
the writer all the time, How do you feel about
being interpreted that way?
‘TE: I think it’s very dangerous to pay too much
attention. It’s an honourable profession, and it’s a

very good thing that books are used as tools in
education, And that fiction, especialy, is used as a
tool. In Toronto, at Osgoode Hall, on one of the
courses, and this is law, they teach a book of mine
called the Lastof the Crazy People in which a little
boy kills his family. And I think that's wonderfully,
creative asa way of using a novel because they use
it in their exploration of the difference between
motive and
BW: Inte
‘TE: intent. And they literally throw the novel
at them and say, “Here's an exploration. Come to
terms with it, Tell us what it means.” For law:

yers, Very creative. I think that's great. But when
professors... there was one T always use asthe
example of why it’s dangerous and also, very
‘mystifying (laughs). This professor was teaching
his class that ‘The Wars could be summarized with
the letter “r”, is it? Rabbits, Rowena, Robert

Ross, rape. And I thought, “What? Wha!” But
then he apparently breaks down the book into all
these sections. Robert Ross isa name and.

Rowena, the sister... and the rabbits and the rape
and gives a very good, very interesting reading of
the book. But I thought, “I don’t want to know
this. [don’t want ro know this. Ever.” And I'm
sorry I did. (Laughs)

BW: Did you want to know you were a
postmodernist?

‘TE: And when... there was a woman called Linda
Hutchins, started writing about postmodernism, I
was chosen as one of the prime examples of what
postmodernism was all about. I was at, by chance,
ata writers’ congress where Linda Hutchins gave a
paper about this and talked about a book of mine
called Famous Last Words as a prime example of
something called “postmodernism”. And I went
rushing home to look up “modernism” and there
‘was nothing in any dictionary, anyway, in those
days - this is now about eight, nine years ago
describing postmodernism in any terms whatso-
ever. Ihadn’t a clue what she was talking about
and I don’t realy think I have yet. I don’t know
what it means. I don’t know what it means.
Because then they talk about postmodernist
architecture.

BW: We find generally academic analysis of a
book has nothing to do with either what the writer
intended or what most readers perceive. Itis- I’m
not saying it’s wrong to do it - but as long as you
realize it isan artificial structure that it being built
up, an intellectual structure that is not connected
to what the artis. I is off to one side. And it just
seems to me it’s rather sad that so much time and
money is put into that kind of lateral interpretation
‘fa piece of work rather than coming to grips with
what the writer is trying to do.

POTA: Do you find it gets lost, the passion of
the word and the power and the emotion and well,
the moral, the message gets lost with analysis?

TE: Mostly, but not inevitably. There are
teachers... 've been to classes where they've
revolutionized the students’ imaginations, basi
cally, and thus their lives, enhancing their response
to reality using books like The Wars. There was
cone senior class ata high school where all the
students were cases. And a class had been created
Cf young men who had fought education, who
‘were fighting the civilization around them in every
sense - not necessarily all people from the street or
poor people, but real intellectual anarchists - and
they were, for me, electrifying - to listen to them
and to listen to what they had got from reading
‘The Wars because of the way it had been opened
to them. They never would have even picked it up
iftthey hadn’t had this particular teacher. And in
those instances, it’s then you think, “Hallelujah.
Do whatever you need to.” - because in a sense it
saves live, by which I mean reading, not The
Wars.

by scott scobbie