Interview: Ray Arnatt by Ed Ivsins .

E—The first thing that | thought when | saw the
announcement for your opening on Monday night
was that there was going to be a big debate and |
wondered what was going on.

R—Well, you missed the crucial word, in the
notice, which said to view the great debate. The
Great Debate to me is a singular thing, it is always
a central issue in my work, the dialogue between
opposites; and that is ‘The Great Debate,’ the
great human debate and as my work reflects that
condition | thought | would use it as a title for
the whole show. Debate need not be a verbal
thing; this is a visual debate.

E—A debate between what?

A—A debate between opposites.

E—Within the work?

A—Within the work, it is a dialogue between
opposites.

E—A dialogue between each piece?

A—No, Sometimes it is a dialogue between each
piece, sometimes it is happening within the piece;
it is always happening to some extent within
the piece. But often when they take their indivi-
dual form they come out as an emphasis of one
particular quality. For example, some pieces
come out as rational progressions. That is an
emphasis in that direction, not an exclusion of
arbitrary factors, whatever that might mean.
Some of them are quickly resolved, the circle
piece was very rapidly resolved. So they start
from the same base, and then take off in their
own direction, and | just see myself interjecting
at some point, sometimes direction, picking alter-
natives; and sometimes a piece just evolves like
that. A lot of them have to do with processes,
you know, the way of making a circle. The com-
plete circle is the beginning. | know how to make
the circle, but in the actual event of making it,
that gives you a clue, it again reinforces how it is
made, and you investigate that. Work, as an artist,
is investigating your own ideas in your work, so it
is a process, a dialogue between consolidation and
invention. Between things you know for certainty
and things you are finding out, and that is what
gives it the excitement. Mondrian called it ‘Dyna-
mic Equilibrium,’ other people call it ‘tension’
and other artists have described it in other ways.
It comes up in any investigation, whether it is a
scientific one or a philosophic one. It really does
come up over and over again.

E—So you take a point or a base, and it evolves
from that?

A—Yes, and the base goes back into my own
history; this is why | say | am an artist with one
idea, the central concern of trying to find out
about this relationship between opposites. A very
famous quotation says, ‘We go to extremes in
order to understand the center,’ and | believe
that when you get towards an extreme, it informs
you about the other end of the scale. You have
no idea of minuteness unless you have some idea
of massiveness.

E—But where do you start on the scale? Do you
start in the center and work to the extremes or
start at the extremes and go to the other extreme,
or bypass the center?

A—Well, again, it is ‘to‘ing and ‘fro‘ing, and it is
important that that position where things do
crossover ... 1 have been working on this idea
since 1962 and | have made a quotation there
where | state that the gap between extremes is
infinitely small but infinitely deep and that was
an early attempt at trying to define what that
situation was. But now I see it much more as a
paradoxical one and one which is not open to
easy solution, but see the whole thing as an event
happening consecutively.

E—How do you select your ideas as starting
points?

A—Do you mean ‘pick a theme?’ | don’t pick
themes. The whole of my work is a parallel, a
metaphor, of my understanding of the human
condition.

E—It is an abstract?

A—Yes, it is an abstract.

E—A visualisation?

A—Yes, but not in any direct way because some-
times you can get analogies which seem to have a
very close connection with it. | see my things
almost as figurative objects in the range in which
they occur. In the same way that when you look
at a figure it is enormously diverse with fantastic
extremes just in the mechanics and the way that
it is made; and certainly visually it is very extreme
and yet it has a sense of unity and | would try to
make those direct connections as a metaphor. My
work would have to be about that range, not

about something simple. | could be selective. I.

could make work that eliminates half the universe,
quite easily; but | can’t do that, because | recog-
nize, when | am being rational, that there are
parts of me that are not rational, which are a
complete mystery. That is why I call myself a
Totalist, because it deals with my total under-
standing of what | am and what I believe.

E—Are you playing the rational against the irra-

Published by Student Services

Emily Carr College of Art
Vancouver, B.C.
Vo. 2, No. 12

249 Dunsmuir St.
V6B 2X2

Editors Ed Ivsins and Michael Lawlor

TERM OF COPYRIGHT

5. The term for which copyright shall
subsist shall, except as otherwise expressly
provided by this Act, be the life of the author
and a period of fifty years after his death.
RS., c. 55, 8. 5.

6. In the case of a literary, dramatic or
musical work, or an engraving, in which
copyright subsists at the date of the death of
the author or, in the case of a work of joint
authorship, at or immediately before the date
of the death of the author who dies last, but
which has not been published, nor, in the case
of a dramatic or musical work, been performed
in public, nor, in the case of a lecture, been
delivered in public, before that date, copyright
shall subsist until publication, or performance
or delivery in public, whichever may first
happen, and for a term of fifty years
thereafter, and the provisions of section 7

WHAT'S YOUR FAVOURITE MEDIUM AND WHY ?

Cupy- Beckuse You CAN Do
AnytHune With IT & MAKE
IT LOOK LIKE ANYTHING, |

pee OD) - pifeces ony ios otc ad
I Gig ol olaomeng.
\ Dad'r HAVE ONE,

Faley- Qresents a Arange
&
( eesides Somedoary oe Cool

bbe 9

Melarcen soda oo ')

tional and the irrational against the rational?
A-—I don’t play them against, | try to bring them

_together because, for me, they exist the one with

the other; and that is a paradoxical situation. We
tend to try to make them separate.

E—How does one locate, or identify the rational
in some of your pieces? Are they submerged or
can you say this is rational or that is irrational?
A-—I| think the grids themselves are a simple
rational thing. They are intervals of the same
quality and the piece | call Primary Sequence,
which is the primary colours plus black and white,

_ in sequence they change about, and they are

formed in a very rational way. But | would be
compulsed not to leavethat on it’s own, but in
that linear expression of bringing opposites to-
gether it has to be contained within a thing which
contains things which are not of that character.

relating to the reproduction of a published
work, after the death of the author, in the
case of works mentioned in this section, apply
as if the author had died at the date of such
publication, performance or delivery in public
as aforesaid. R.S., c. 55, s. 6.

7. (1) After the expiration of twenty-five
years, of in the case of a work in which
copyright subsisted on the 4th day of June
1921, thirty years, from the death of the
author of a published work, copyright in the
work shall not be deemed to be infringed by
the reproduction of the work for sale if the
person reproducing the work proves that he
has given the prescribed notice in writing of
his intention to reproduce the work, and that
he has paid in the prescribed manner to, or
for the benefit of, the owner of the copyright,
royalties in respect of all copies of the work
sold by him, calculated at the rate of ten per
cent on the price at which he publishes the
work.

(2) For the purposes of this section, the
Governor in Council may make regulations
prescribing the mode in which notices are to
be given, and the particulars to be given in
such notices, and the mode, time, and
frequency of the payment of royalties,
including, if he thinks fit, regulations requir-
ing payment in advance or otherwise securing
the payment of royalties. R.S., c. 55, s. 7.

8. (1) In the case of a work of joint
authorship, copyright shall subsist during the

SPECIAL WOMEN'S ISSUE

ANYONE INTERESTED IN CONTRIBUTING
TO A SPECIAL WOMEN'S ISSUE OF THE X
- PLEASE GET YOUR OPINIONS, GRAPHICS,
PHOTOS, ETC., TO THE WOMEN'S COM-
MITTEE MAIL SLOT IN THE MAIN OFFICE
BY APRIL 8TH, OR LEAVE THEM AT THE
X OFFICE IN THE HELEN PITT.

life of the author who dies last and for a term
of fifty years after his death, and references
in this Act to the period after the expiration
of any specified number of years from the
death of the author shall be construed as
references to the period after the expiration
of the like number of years from the death of
the author who dies last, and in the provisions
of this Act with respect to the grant of
compulsory licences a reference to the date of
the death of the author who dies last shall be
substituted for the date of the death of the
author.

(2) Authors who- are nationals of any
country that grants a term of protection
shorter than that mentioned in subsection (1)
are not entitled to claim a longer term of
protection in Canada. R.S., c. 55, s. 8.

9. The term for which copyright shall
subsist in photographs shall be fifty years
from the making of the original negative from
which the photograph was directly or indirect-
ly derived, and the person who was owner of
such negative at the time when such negative
was made shall be deemed to be the author
of the photograph so derived, and, where such
owner is a body corporate, the body corporate
shall be deemed for the purposes of this Act
to reside within Her Majesty’s Realms and
Territories if it has established a place of
business therein. R.S., c. 55, s. 9.

10. The term for which copyright shall
subsist in records, perforated rolls and other
contrivances by means of which sounds may
be mechanically reproduced shall be fifty
years from the making of the original plate
from which the contrivance was directly or.
indirectly derived, and the person who was
.the owner of such original plate at the time
when such plate was made shall be deemed to

CON'T ON
PHAGE 33.3

So it is a poetic relationsihip. ‘Libation’ is a
more obvious one, being just a pouring over of
stuff to build up. That is like an act of libation
which is countered by the circle which is a straight
form of a rational idea, very preconceived. One
has to allow the other. They exist because the

other exists. Total ism

—This interview continues in the last issue
=

Interview: Ray Arnatt by Ed Ivsins

E—The first thing that I thought when | saw the
announcement for your opening on Monday night
was that there was going to be a big debate and |
wondered what was going on.
R-Well, you missed the crucial word, in the
notice, which said to view the great debate. The
Great Debate to me is a singular thing, it is always
a central issue in my work, the dialogue b
opposites; and that is ‘The Great Debate,’ the
great human debate and as my work reflects that
condition | thought | would use it asa title for
the whole show. Debate need not be a verbal
thing; this is a visual debate.
E=A debate between what?
A-A debate between opposites.
E-Within the work?
A-Within the work, it is a dialogue betwet
opposites.
E=A dialogue between each piece?
‘A—No, Sometimes it is a dialogue between each
piece, sometimes it is happening within the pie
it is always happening to some extent within
the piece. But often when they take their indivi-
dual form they come out as an emphasis of one
particular quality. For example, some pieces
‘come out as rational progressions. That is an
‘emphasis in that direction, not an exclusion of
arbitrary factors, whatever that might mean.
Some of them are quickly resolved, the circle
piece was very rapidly resolved. So they start
from the same base, and then take off in their
lection, and I just see myself interjec

and sometimes a piece just evolves like
that. A lot of them have to do with processes,
you know, the way of making a circle. The com-
plete circle is the beginning. | know how to make
the circle, but in the actual event of making it,
it again reinforces how it is
made, and yo igate that. Work, as an artist,
is investigating your own ideas in your work, so it
a process, a dialogue between consolidation and
invention. Between things you know for certainty
and things you are finding out, and that is what
sives it the excitement. Mondrian called it ‘Dyna-
mic Equilibrium,’ other people call it ‘tension’
and other artists have described it in other ways.
It comes up in any investigation, whether
scientific one or a philosophic one. It really does
come up over and over again.
E-So you take a point or a base, and it evolves
from that?
A-Yes, and the base goes back into my own
history; this is why | say | am an artist with one
idea, the central concern of trying to find out
about this relationship between opposites. A very
famous quotation says, ‘We go to extremes
order to understand the center,’ and | believe
that when you get towards an extreme, it informs
you about the other end of the scale. You have
fo idea of minuteness unless you have some idea
of massiveness.
E-But where do you start on the scale? Do you
start in the center and work to the extremes or
start at the extremes and go to the other extreme,
‘or bypass the center?
‘A=Wall, again, it is ‘to'ing and ‘fro‘ing, and it is
important that that position where things
crossover . . . | have been working on this id
since 1962 and | have made a quotation th
where | state that the gap between extremes is
infinitely small but infinitely deep and that was

easy solution, but see the whole thing as an event
happening consecutively.

E-How do you select your ideas as starting
points?

A—Do you mean ‘pick a theme?’ | don’t

k
themes. The whole of my work is a parallel, a
metaphor, of my understanding of the human
condition.

E-t is an abstract?
AxYes, it is an abstract.
E-A visualisation?
A-Yes, but not in any

ict way because some-
ym to have a
very close connection | see my things
almost as figurative objects in the range in which

ecu. In the same way that when you look
enormously diverse with fantastic

it is made; and certainly visually it is very extreme
and yet it has a sense of unity and | would try to
make those direct connections as a metaphor. My
work would have to be about that range, not
I could be selective. |
ates half the universe,
quite easily; but | can’t do that, because | recog-
nize, when | am being rational, that there are
parts of me that are not rational, which are a
complete mystery. That is why I call myself a
Totalist, because it deals with my total under-
standing of what | am and what | believe.

the rational against the irra-

© Published by Student Services

Emily Carr College of Art
‘Vancouver, 8.
Vo.2,No, 12

Editors Ed sine and Michol Lawlor

249 Dunamir St.
ves 2x2

‘TERM OF COPYRIGHT

5. The term for which copyright shall
subsist shall, except as otherwise expressly
provided by this Act, be the life of the author
and a period of fifty years after his death.
RS,,¢.55,4.5.

6. In the case of literary, dramatic or
musical work, or @n engraving, in which
copyright subsists at the date of the death of
the author or, in the case of a work of joint
authorship, at or immediately before the date
of the death of the author who dies Inst, but
which has not been published, nor, in the ease
‘of a dramatic or musical work, been performed
in public, nor, in the case of a lecture, been
delivered in public, before that date, copyright
shall subsist until publication, or performance
‘or delivery in public, whichever may first

WHAT'S YOUR FAVOURITE MEDIUM AND WHY 7

funy- Bechuse You CAN Do
Aytamc Witd IT & MAKE.
IT Look Like ANYTHING.

Cacho Ia dlivaaLinn Bi divig
Kg eg

\ Davy WAVE ONE.

av — taunt Vag

Filme presents a change

Bomedary oo Cord

Nees he:
Epa

‘A=I don’t play them against, | try to bring them
together because, for me, they exist the one with

the other; and that is a paradoxical situation. We
tend to try to make them separate.

E-How does one locati jentify the rational
in some of your pieces? Are they submerged or
can you say this is rational or that is irrational?
A-I think the grids themselves are a simple
rational thing. They are intervals of the same
quality and the piece | call Primary Sequenc
which is the primary colours plus black and white,
in sequence they change about, and they are
formed in a very rational way. But 1 would be
compulsed not to leavethat on it’s own, but in
that linear expression of bringing opposites to-
gether it has to be contained within a thing which
contains things which are not of that character.

Melaten eakh oll)

relating to the reproduction of a published

work, after the death of the author, in the
case of works mentioned in this section, apply
as if the author had died at the date of such
publication, performance or delivery in public
‘as aforesaid, RS., 55,8. 6.

7. (1) After the expiration of twenty-five
year, or in the case of a work in which
Copyright subsisted on the 4th day of June
1921, thirty years, from the death of the
author of a published work, copyright in the
work shall not be deemed to be infringed by
the reproduction of the work for sale if the
person reproducing the work proves that he
has given the prescribed notice in writing of
his intention to reproduce the work, and that
he has paid in the prescribed manner to, or
for the benefit of, the owner of the copyright,
royalties in respect of all copies of the work
sold by him, calculated at the rate of ten per
cent om the'price at which he publishes the

@) For the purposes of this section, the
Governor in Council may make regulations
preseribing the mode in which notices are to
be given, and the particulars to be given in
such notices, and the mode, time, and
frequency of the payment of royalties,
including, if he thinks ft, regulations requir
ing payment in advance or otherwise securing
the payment of royalties. RS, c. 85,

8. (1) In the case of a work of joint
authorship, copyright shall subsist during the

SPECIAL WOMEN'S ISSUE

ANYONE INTERESTED IN CONTRIBUTING
TO A SPECIAL WOMEN'S ISSUE OF THE X
= PLEASE GET YOUR OPINIONS, GRAPHICS,
PHOTOS, ETC., TO THE WOMEN'S COM-
MITTEE MAIL SLOT IN THE MAIN OFFICE
BY APRIL 8TH, OR LEAVE THEM AT THE
X OFFICE IN THE HELEN PITT.

life of the author who dies last and for a term
of fifty years after his death, and references
in this Act to the period after the expiration
of any specified number of years from the
death of the author shall be construed as
references to the period after the expiration
of the like number of years from the death of
the author who dies ast, and in the provisions
cof this Act with respect to the grant of
compulsory licences a reference to the date of
the death of the author who dies last shall be
substituted for the date of the death of the
author.

@) Authors who: are nationals of any
country that grants a term of protection
shorter than that mentioned in subsection (1)
‘are not entitled to claim a longer term of
protection in Canada, R.S,, ¢. 55, 8.8

9. The term for which copyright shall
subsist in photographs shall be fifty years
from the making of the original negative from
which the photograph was directly or indireet-
ly derived, and the person who was owner of
‘such negative at the time when such negative
was made shall be deemed to be the author
of the photograph so derived, and, where such
‘owner is a body corporate, the body corporate
shall be deemed for the purposes of this Act
to reside within Her Majesty’s Realms and
‘Territories if it has established « place of
business therein, R.S.,¢. 55, 9.

10. The term for which copyright shall
subsist in records, perforated rolls and other
contrivances by means of which sounds may
be mechanically reproduced shall be fifty
years from the making of the original plate
from which the contrivance was directly or
indirectly derived, and the persgn who was

«the owner of such original plate at the time
when such plate was made shall be deemed to

CON'T ON
PAGE 333

So it is a poetic relationsihip. ‘Libation’ is a
more obvious one, being just a pouring over of
stuff to build up. That is like an act of libation
which is countered by the circle which is a straight
form of a rational idea, very preconceived. One
has to allow the other. They exist because the

other exists. Totalism

interview continues in the last issue

—T