Hi. Last month, PoA had the opportunit
was in town for the opening of his and gy

People expect that you take the same political activist
position that your work does, but you said at your lecture at
ECIAD that you don’t take that position anymore, that you're

a painter...

Well, I’m both, you see. | have been activist in various causes, and my
painting speaks to some degree about certain of these causes. At the
same time it isn’t always that up front, and I’m interested as much in
the psychology of the psychic lives of who are in these paintings. So,
a guy’s not just a goon, you follow? you know? He's a
guy who may have children, and may be capable of
tenderness. At the same time, he mia S
Capa Te of hitting somebody over the head
with a gun or shooting them and not feel a damn
thing, or even get pleasure out of it, you see. He may be all
these things at once and many other things as well.

Most artists are a little evasive, okay. And the reason you’re evasive
often is you’re not sure of the answers, and you may not want to
reveal your unsureness. Or maybe, you're afraid if you reveal too
much, everybody will get it, and then what's the point of even look-
ing at it anymore, you see? You know, everybody gets it, you know,
you follow, you see... Art has to be in flux, no matter what the art is.
Take someone like Wyeth. He’s often condemned for being one-
dimensional. That his realism is just what it is, almost like Norman
Rockwell, but not quite. Norman Rockwell and Wyeth aren’t going to
let you get away with that if they can help it. They’re gonna say that
you’re coming to it with a bias and an over-simplistic [approach]. So |
can’t provide for all the students at Emily Carr... what
is this that I’m supposed to be, or who | am, or so
on and so forth.

You make something, you stick it up. The minute
it goes up nineeas has_a right to an opinion.
You've gone public. Don complain if

eople say t —_ ou don't like. You
tuck it up tneré, t — gonna say things,

okay? At the same time, while you can’t Control what
they’re going to say, you don’t necessarily have to care much what
individuals among them will say, either. Because, often they‘re preju-
' diced, or screwed, up or something else.

In two paintings that I’ve done, | have twelve inch letters that say
“TRANSMISSION GARBLED”. All these messages are garbled because
they’re coming from all directions, and they interrupt each other. And
art has to do that, too.

How do you position yourself politically within the context of
your work today? S

Well, you might say I’m a liberal or left-liberal in
political points of view. | adhere to the notion that
you let people speak up, and do what they’re
doing as long as they're not really injuring others... and you
leave people alone as much as possible, but the society has an obliga-
tion to help those who for one reason or another are not capable of
resolving certain kinds of things like poverty, and so on. Like for
example, | believe — and it’s not such a radical thought either — that
people like you shouldn’t owe money at the end of your education,
that the government should provide education free or virtually free.
College students should be able to go to college for four years with-
out having to owe $30,000 at the end of it, that’s ridiculous. Because
that’s one of the greatest assets a country can have, is an educated
[populace]. In many European countries, it’s easier. Maybe it’s easier
in Canada, too, I’m just thinking about the United States. So it’s soci-

May-June 1996 / Planet of the Arts 13

ety that penalizes it’s young people, it makes life tough for them.

Do you see yourself being more of a critic or an observer?

It depends on the day of the week, or the hour. My work has a criti-
cal edge to it in a political sense. But I’m also an observer. I’m trying
to tell it the way it is. It’s like documentary photography: to what
extent is the person an observer or a critic? Lines cross — maybe times
I've been more one than the other.

Could you tell me about being a social critic using fine art as

a medium? 3 -

No...no... Art is where Society is, It’s not sup-
posed to be some beautiful flower isolated
somewhere in a PFecious glass case. | don’t think it’s that way,
and in most societies is hasn’t been that way. So | think that art has
to be part and parcel of whatever it is that’s going on.

| think the artist has to be in the centre of society. But what’s the cen-
tre of society? Periphery is part of society, too... you could say that
periphery is centre of society, about things that happen at the edge,
you see.

Mass media is at the centre of society right now:
television, etc. How does using fine art relate to the audience
that you could reach compared to that through the mass media?
Of course, and who are you appealing to? A number of museums
and rich people to take your work. Everything moves through things.
For example, in today’s Vancouver Sun there’s an article on my wife
and myself. So, even if people don’t go see the show [at the VAG],

and most of them won’t read the article, they could
n’t care less, they glimpse it and they see some-
thing, and somehow it enters at some level, and so’

on. j

Or if you think of the scandals of
Mapplethorp and Serrano, that’s something that
became a big public issue...of course, they’re both
photographers, media stuff, and so on.

If painting is dead today, there’s not much I can do about, and

that’s all | can do anyway. I've tried like hell to push my work into the.

public or civic sphere. I’ve tried to shove it into it as much as | can.

How has Nancy’s work influenced yours over the years, and
vice-versa?

We have a very good relationship in terms of critical attitudes. We
criticize each other all the time, and we’re very straight forward. And
we have never hurt the other one’s feelings, no matter what we say,
because we have total confidence that what's coming
is coming straight.

There are some influences. For example, we both
were interested in Greek and Etruscan art about the
same time, and it entered our work, but differently.
Or currently, we’re both interested in using quite a bit

of colour. And we both picked up on using photographic stuff. So the
influences go back and forth.

Why did you continue to pursue the avenue of art galleries when
you were being ignored from it, and why did you stay in the art
world?

The other alternative would be to try to do public
murals, or get out of art altogether. I’ve thought

about ge
art.
periods when _| was
despondent. Things
were kind of ..
totall disgusting,
and it was Nard to
make a living... at the
time we had small chil-
dren and | worried a lot. But
the thing | felt most interested in
and most qualified to do was to
paint. | taught most of these
years when | could get jobs.
What was the point in giving up?
The alternatives | had
weren’t so great anyway.

Artists have a strong drive
in them to keep going. If you’re
unhappy with your role as an
artist,it’s okay to quit the art
world, but if you quit, don’t look
back. Don’t to there’s a
damn good chance
you'll D€ unhappy if
you step out of

e

he ar t oO. |
used to tell my
students, don’t

tting Out Of
ere were

years that you shoul
quit, then
vali to | e
Leo

Hi, Last month, PoA had the opportunit)

was in town for the opening of his and. wite Mim
ita the VAG. The conversation went sor

on Golub. He
Spero's exhib:

People expect that you take the same political activist
postion that your work does, but you said at your lecture at
ECIAD that you don't take that position anymore, that you're
‘a painter.
‘Well, Fm both, you se. I have been activist in various causes, and my
painting speaks to some degree about certain of these causes. At the
Same time it isnt always that upfront, and t'm interested as much in
the psychology ofthe psychic lives of who are in these paintings. So,
2 gs nat jst a goon, you follow? you know? He’s a

guy who may have children, and may be capable of
beer ian ae Be same time, he ma

cal iting somebody over the head
witha Ble 2 shooting them and not feel a damn
thing, or even get pleasure out oft, you see. He may be all
these things at once and many other things as well

Most artists area itl evasive, okay. And the reason you're evasive

often is you're not sure ofthe answers, and you may not want to
reveal your unsureness. Or maybe, you'e afraid if you reveal too
much, everybody wil get it, and then what's the point of even look-
ing at it anymore, you see? You know, everybody gets it, you know,
you follow, you see... Art has to be in flux, no matter what the artis
“Take someone like Wyeth. He's often condemned for being one-
«dimensional. That his realism is ust what its, almost ike Norman
Rockwell, ut not quite. Norman Rockwell and Wyeth aren‘t going to
le you get avay wth that if tey can help it Theyre gonna say that
you're coming to it with a bias and an over-simplstc approach]. So!
‘can't provide for all the students at Emily Carr... what
is this that I'm supposed to be, or who | am, or so
on and so forth.

You make something, you stick it up, The minute
it goes up sales cy ioe a i i to an opinion,

feo ay Eon fain
i a ‘ou
op i the

cyte don't say things,
Meg fa the same-tnte, while you can’ towel west
they/te going to say, you don't necessarily have to care much what
individuals among them wil say, either. Because often theyre preju-
diced, or screwed, up or something else

in two paintings that ve done, Ihave twelve inch letters that say
“TRANSMISSION GARBLED". All these messages are garbled because
they/e coming from all directions, and they interrupt each other. And

art has to do that, too.

How de yu poston yourself pot within the conten of
your work today’

Wel, you might say t'm a liberal or left-iberal in
political points of view. | adhere to the notion that
you let people speak up, and do what they're
doing as long as they're not relly injuring others... and you
leave people alone as much as possible, but the socety has an obliga-
tion to help those who for one reason or another are not capable of
resolving certain kinds of things like poverty, and 50 on. Like for
example, | believe ~ and it's not such a radical thought ether - that
peopl like you shouldn't owe money atthe end of your education,
that the government should provide education free or virtual free.
‘College students shouldbe able to goto college forfour yeas with-
cout having to owe $30,000 at the end oft, thats ridiculous. Because
that’s one of the greatest assets a country can have, i an educated
[populace] In many European countries, its easier. Maybe is easier
in Canada, oo, Ym jut thinking about the United Stats. Soi’ soc

May-June 1996 / Planet of the Arts 13

‘ety that penalizes it’s young people, it makes life tough for them. about getting out of
art. ere ee

Be ds when | was

esp 2A things
totall gusting:
an I was ard
make a living... at tee
time we had small chil-
dren and | worried alot. But
the thing felt most interested in
and most qualified to do was to
paint. | taught most of these
years when I could get jobs.
What was the point in giving up?
The alternatives | had
werent so great anyway.

ists havea strong drive

in them to keep going. If you're
‘unhappy with your role as an
artists olay to quit the art
world, but if you quit, dont look
back. Don't to there's a
damp good chang
you'll Be unr i
you ste

Do you see yourself being more of a critic or an observer?
It depends on the day of the week, or the hour. My work has a criti-
‘al edge to it in a political sense. But I'm also an observer. I'm trying
to tell it the way itis. It’s ke documentary photography: to what
‘extent is the person an observer ora critic? Lines cross ~ maybe times
Fve been more one than the other.

Could you tell me about being a social critic using fine art as

medium?
No.0. Art gi socjety is, It’s not su
posed fo be'Some b eat arene
Somewhere in a precious glass case. | don't think is that way,
and in mast societies is hasn't been that way. So I think that art has.

to be part and parcel of whatever itis that’s going on.

| think the artist has to be in the centre of society. But what's the cen-
tre of society? Periphery is part of society, too... you could say that
periphery is centre of society, about things that happen at the edge,
you see.

Mass media is at the centre of society right now:
television, etc. How does using fine art relat to the audience
that you could reach compared to that through the mass media?
OF course, and who are you appealing to? A number of museums
and rch people to take your work: Everything moves through things.
For example, in today’s Vancouver Sun there's an article on my wife

fe to tal ry
and myself So, even f people don't go see the show [atthe VAGI,

students,

,

‘and most of them won't read the article, they could- | torture yourseit that
n't care less, they glimpse it and they see some- youre

thing, and somehow it enters at some level, and so a ane en tor-

on. TE YOUT self for twenty

Or if you think of the scandals of
Mapplethorp and Serrano, that’s something that
became a big public issue...of course, they're both
photographers, media stut, and so on.

if painting is dead today, there's not much I can do about, and
that’ all | can do anyway ve tried like hel to push my work into the
public or civic sphere. Ive tried to shove i into it as much as can.

that you shouldnt have

Fa hen you're

TSerable. 7

How has Nancy's work influenced yours over the years, and
vice-versa?

We have a very good relationship in terms ofcrtical attitudes. We

cttcize each other all the time, and we'e very straight forward. And
‘we have never hurt the other one's felings, no matter what we sy,
because we have total confidence that what's coming
is coming straight.

There are some influences. For example, we both
were interested in Greek and Etruscan art about the
same time, and it entered our work, but differently.
Or currently, we're both interested in using quite abit
‘of colour. And we both picked up on using photographic stuff So the
influences go back and forth.

\Why did you continue to pursue the avenue of art galleries wien
you were being ignored from it, and why did you stay in the art
world?

The other alternative would be to try to do public
murals, or get out of art altogether. I've thought