I N He E R V Planet of the Arts, vol.4, no.3 E W LIS RHODES Lis Rhodes is an independent British filmmaker who recently screened her work at the Pacific Cinematheque. Rhodes has received much acclaim for her films which have been widely shown in galleries in Europe and Britain. Her post-structuralist film techniques have lead her to be regarded as a major force in experimental and structuralist/materialist filmmaking in Great Britain. Her most recent film, ‘A Cold Draft’, finished only weeks before the Cinematheque showing, is a haunting symbolic rendering of Rhodes’ feminist concerns and fears for the socio/ politico landscape of Britain. Rhodes was an advisor for the Greater London Arts Council; she currently instructs at the Slade School of Art in London. S.L. A women’s body as an image has been very abused in cinematic representa- tion. As a filmmaker, how do you deal with ‘showing a woman.’ L.R. We do live within certain social value systems that I feel, on the whole, are extremely destructive to a woman, in particular in relation to her own, and, in a sense what I’m working around is Why’. What are the structures that cause this. So, to simply re-represent what we already know and need not see again, if anything, that is some- thing I polemically avoid. Also, because it is not the issue that I’m dealing with in that surface way. I'm interested in what is underlying a system that can cause oppression. There are some films around trying to deal with the issue of pornography, a very important issue, but as soon as you re-represent it the ground gets very boggy. How does one deal with violence, sexual violence, without in any way allowing an audience to re-enjoy it. S.L. You are concerned about lan- guage — women having a vocabulary that is their own. L.R. Certainly, I don’t think there is a biologically determined feminine voice or language, because when we are discussing gender positions we are talking about social construction; we are not talking about biologically determined fact. So, I don’t think in any sense am I trying to develop a private, or feminine, or biologically determined language. What I am trying to do is be extremely precise about what I think is going on and raising some questions. I don’t think I’ve got any solutions — that’s not quite true, but certainly I don’t write films imposing the solutions. I think what is much more important is raising the questions, the issues, and being as precise as possible as how one does. That is the reason I write as I do, in the precisest way. Another reason is that it is never easy raising money for films particularly when they are conten- tious from their thinking position plus the way they are made. So, in a sense, I also have to think strategically. How much can I get into the most minute space. Right. I think I work with my feet on the ground, very practically! S.L. To borrow an image from Sylvia Plath, are women under a ‘bell jar?’ L.R. I think there is a good attempt to place them there, put them under a lid. Definitely, one has only to look at the history that’s written to know perfectly well that every possible opportunity for dismissing, for saying that ‘he’ actually did it and ‘she’ was peripheral to it, or that it was her husband, or her publisher, or her anything rather than she actually didit. Yes, there are infinite ways of dismissing everything that women say, do, think... But, I also think women are very strong and that we are not all sitting under bell jars, quite definitely not. She understands the importance of eye contact - and she knows how to use it to get her message across. S.L. Much of ‘A Cold Draft’ incorpo- rates your own drawings and paintings. You put them on film in an interesting way. L.R. How I work is with everything, the writings, drawings, pictures, all coming together. I never prescript anything or pre-set the images. I end up with hundreds of drawings, bits of writing, papers, photographs, bits of film, things like that. What I was actually doing with the drawings was taking negatives or positives of sometimes the whole drawing, sometimes parts of, that I felt were going to be necessary. Now, some of those were actually then taken straight onto film on a rostrum camera. But mostly, I actually reprinted most of them myself directly onto 35mm (motion picture) film. I made myself a kind of a track under the enlarger so I could lay 35mm film across where you usually put photographic paper, emulsion the right way up. Then I manoeuvred the film under the enlarger. I was printing quite long lengths of 35mm film. Then, I would take one or two images from amongst that and remake up a slide to go under the rostrum camera. S.L. You were an advisor on the Greater London Council for the Arts that Margaret Thatcher’s government disbanded. How did that Council function? L.R. What actually happened was when the Labour group came to power in ’81, they wanted a much more coherent arts policy for Greater London. So, they appointed two commit- tees of advisors. All one was allowed to do was advise the councillors, because obviously they are the representative people and take responsibility for how the money is spent, which is quite right, they are elected to do that. But what they wanted was advice how to do that. They set up two commit- tees in London, one for ethnic minorities, and one for community arts, but not ‘community’ in the late 60’s early 70’s idea. I was on a committee of 17 members. We were covering film video, publishing, and bookshops that needed financial assistance or distribution. We were trying to develop an infra- structure that actually met the needs of the people of London as near as one possibly could. Attention was given to those who are usually excluded from culture, which meant high priority given to ethnic minorities and women’s work. So there was a definite and very clear policy direction. Basically, it put capital and waging into an infra-structure that others could use and expand with a particular stress on recording music, publishing, film, and video. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was a very open way with dealing with subsidizing the arts which is vastly important. However, the vote was eventu- ally removed and the Council was disbanded. S.L. So what happens now if you need funding in Britain? Is the Conservative Gov- ernment supportive of the arts? L.R. No, I would say plainly no. There is still the Arts Council, which I believe is similar to your Canada Council. Plus, there is the British Film Institute which does have a production budget for filmmakers, but it’s not very great. The direc- tion things are moving in now is that one should get private sponsorship. I think you can under- stand the implications of that. S.L. There is a bleakness in ‘A Cold Draft’ that seems symptomatic of the last ten years in Britain. L.R. That’s absolutely true. I think it is very bleak there at the moment. There is no doubt that during the 50’s and 60’s J think there was a slight closing of the gap between the wealthy and the poor. England has always been a class-ridden society; there is no doubt about that, but there had been a slight equalling out. In the last ten years the divide has been dramatic, absolutely dramatic. I think that is what the government intended and that’s the way it is going. Hardly any public housing is being built now. Nationalized industries are being privatized — simply sold off, well those are actually owned by taxpayers. One is seeing the introduction to clause 28 preventing local authori- ties in giving any financial support for lesbian and gay projects. Exactly how that is going to work out we don’t know because there hasn’t been a court case yet. There have been massive education cuts. I think very soon we are going to have the removal of student grants which are already so reduced that students are having to take out bank loans. My feeling is that this will simply be made the justifi- cation for turning over to a loan system which I totally disagree with. It is incredibly important and a social responsibility that everyone should have access to the education they need, to whatever level they need. Moreover, we are having reductions in social security. Unemployment figures are being changed — the actual statistical way they are being as- sessed has now been changed 19 or 20 times in the last five years. To keep them down, they simply re- assess how they will express the figures. It’s very devastating. Then, we haven’t even started on the question of cruise missiles, nuclear power sta- tions... It seems to me what I was really getting at in ‘A Cold Draft’ is what happens when one actually gets a change of values and ideology happening so fast. A phrase that is used a lot at the moment is that “We have got to face up to Reality.” This was in my head a lot when making ‘A Cold Draft. What is this imposed reality that we’ve got to believe? It is absolutely devastatingly appalling. That one has got to align oneself in any sense to it is where it becomes very difficult. If you think you are going to lose your job, and many people in the UK are fearful of losing their jobs and it’s not easy to find another one, then you get into a position where what do you do but collude? I think that it is this whole arena of thinking in imposed values, of being forced to collude, is what interests me, that I’m trying to untie, question, argue about. It’s tricky. Sandra Lockwood . Sandra Lockwood It N T E R v Planet of the Arts, vol.4, no.3 E w LIS RHODES Lis Rhodes is an independent British filmmaker who recently screened her work at the Pacific Cinematheque. Rhodes has received much acclai shown in galleries in Europe and Britain. Her post-structuralist film technique be regarded Britain. Her most recent film, ‘A Cold Draft, fi for her films which have been widely hhave lead her to ‘a major force in experimental and structuralist/materialist filmmaking in Great ished only weeks before the Cinematheque showing, is a haunting symbolic rendering of Rhodes’ feminist concerns and fears for the socio! politico landscape of Britain. Rhodes was an advisor for the Greater London Arts Council; she currently instructs at the Slade School of Art in London. tion. Asa filmmaker, how do you deal with ‘showing a woman? LR. We do live within certain social value systems that I feel, on the whole, are extremely destructive to a woman, in particular in relation to hher own, and, in a sense what I'm working around is ‘Why’. What are the structures that eause this. So, to simply re-represent what we already know ‘and need not see again, if anything, that is some- ‘thing Ipolemically avoid. Also, because itis not the issue that I'm dealing with in that surface way. Tm interested in what is underlying a system that ‘ean eause oppression. There are some films around trying to deal with the issue of pornography, a very {important issue, but as soon as you re-represent it the ground gets very bogay. How does one deal with violenee, sexual violence, without in any way allowing an audience to re-enjoy it. SLL. You are concerned about lan- ‘guage — women having a vocabulary that. their own. LR." Certainly, I dont think there is a biologically determined feminine voice or language, because when we are discussing gender postions ‘we ae talking about social construction; we are not talking about biologically determined fat. So, don't thinkin any sense am I trying to develop a private, or feminine, o biologically determined language. What I am trying to dois be extremely precise about what I think i going on and raising Some questions. I don't think Ive got any solutions — that’s not quite true, but certainly I don't write films imposing the solutions. I think what is much ‘more important is raising the questions, the issues, and being as precise as possible as how one does. ‘That isthe reason I write as Id, inthe precsest ‘way. Another reason is that tis never easy rising ‘money for films particularly when they ae conten: tious from their Ghinking positon plus the way they are made. So, in a sense, {also have to think stratogically. How much can I get into the most rinute space. Right. I think Iwork with my feet on the ground, very practically! SLL. To borrow an image from Sylvi Plath, are women under a ‘bell jar? LR. "I think there is a good attempt to place them there, put them under aid. Definitely, one has only to look atthe history that's written to ‘know perfectly well that every possible opportunity for dismissing, for saying that he’ actually did it ‘and ‘she was peripheral ti or that it was her Ihusband, or her publisher, or her anything rather ‘than she actually didit. Yes, there are infinite ‘ways of dismissing everything that women say, do, think... But, I also think women are very strong ‘and that we are not al sitting under bell jars, quite efinitely not ‘Sto underand the importance of 0 contact anda knows how tow together memge scroet SL. Much of ‘A Cold Draft’ incorpo- rates your own drawings and paintings. You put them on film in an interesting way. LR. How I work is with everything, the ‘writings, drawings, pictures, all coming together. 1 never preseript anything or pre-set the images. I end up with hundreds of drawings, bits of writing, papers, photographs, bits of film, things like that, ‘What I was actually doing with the drawings was taking negatives or positives of sometimes the whole drawing, sometimes parts of, that [felt were going to be necessary. Now, some of those were actually then taken straight onto film on a rostrum camera. But mostly I actually reprinted most of them myself directly onto 35mm (motion picture) film, Tmade myself a kind of a track under the enlarger soI could lay 35mm film aeross where you ‘usually put photographie paper, emulsion the right way up. Then I manoeuvred the film under the enlarger. Iwas printing quite long lengths of ‘35mm film. Then, I would take one or two images from amongst that and remake up a slide to go under the rostrum camera. SL. You were an advisor on the Greater London Council for the Arts that Margaret Thatcher's government disbanded. How did that Council function? LR. What actually happened was when the Labour group came to power in’81, they ‘wanted a much more coherent arts policy for Greater London. So, they appointed two commit. tees of advisors. All one was allowed to do was advise the councillors, because obviously they are the representative people and take responsibility for how the money is spent, which is quite right, they are elected to do that. ‘But what they wanted was advice how to do that. They set up two commit- tees in London, one for ethnie minorities, and one {for community arts, but not ‘community’ in the late 60's carly 70's idea. I was on a committee of 17 ‘members. We were covering film video, publishing, and bookshops that needed financial assistance or distribution. We were trying to develop an infra- structure that actually met the needs of the people of London as near as one possibly could. Attention ‘was given to those who are usually excluded from culture, which meant high priority given to ethnic ‘minorities and women’s work. So there was a definite and very clear policy direction. Basically, it put eapital and waging into an infra-structure that others could use and expand with a particular stress on recording music, publishing, film, and video. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was a very open way with dealing with subsidizing the arte which is ‘vastly important. However, the vote was eventu- ally removed and the Council was dishanded. S.L. So what happens now if you need funding in Britain? Is the Conservative Gov- ernment supportive of the arts? LR. No, I would say plainly no. There is still the Arts Council, which Ibelieve is similar to your Canada Couneil. Plus, there is the British. Film Institute which does have a production budget for filmmakers, but it’s not very great. The direc: tion things are moving in now is that one should get private sponsorship. I think you ean under- stand the implications of that. SL. There is a bleakness in ‘A Cold Draft’ that seems symptomatic of the last ten ‘years in Britain. LR. That’s absolutely true. Ithink itis very bleak there at the moment. There is no doubt that during the 50s and 60's I think there was a slight closing of the gap between the wealthy and the poor. England has always been a class-ridden society; there is no doubt about that, but there had ‘been a slight equalling out. In the last ten years the divide has been dramatic, absolutely dramatic. think that is what the government intended and that’s the way itis going. Hardly any public housing is being built now. Nationalized industries are being privatized — simply sold off, well those are actually owned by taxpayers. One is secing the Introduetion to clause 28 preventing local authori ties in giving any financial support for lesbian and ‘say projects. Exactly how that is going to work out wwe don't know because there hasn't been a court cease yet. ‘There have been massive education cuts. I think very soon we are going to have the removal of student grants which are already s0 reduced that students are having to take out bank loans. My feoling is that this will simply be made the justifi- cation for turning over toa loan system which I totally disagree with. Itis ineredibly important and a social responsibility that everyone should hhave access to the education they need, to whatever level they need. Moreover, we are having reductions in social security. Unemployment figures are being changed — the actual statistical way they are being ae sessed has now been changed 19 or 20 times in the last five years. To keep them down, they simply re- ‘assess how they will express the figures. Its very devastating. Then, we haven't even started on the question of cruise missiles, nuclear power sta tions Tt seams to me what I was really getting at in ‘A Cold Draft is what happens when one actually gets a change of values and ideology happening so fast. A phrase that is used a lot at the moment is that “We have got to face up to Reality.” This was in my head alot when making‘A Cold Draft What is this imposed reality that we've got to believe? It is absolutely devastatingly appalling. That one has {got to align oneself in any sense to it is where it becomes very difficult. Ifyou think you are going to lose your job, and many people in the UK are fearful of losing their jobs and it's not easy to find another one, then you get into a position where what do you do but collude? I think that itis this ‘whole arena of thinking in imposed values, of being forced to collude, is what interests me, that I'm ‘trying to untie, question, argue about. It’s tricky. Sandra Lockwood ‘Sandra Lockwood