M.—Men are allowed to do it to become successful and women are allowed to do it to dabble? S.— Yes, and you can see that in the school statistics, at the undergraduate level, when women start to get up into the senior years; that is when it starts to get hard. | think that a lot of the time, men instructors expect their women students to be dilettantes and to fly off and get married and do these things that are anathema to the myth of the artist. They don’t take them seriously and when a woman demands to be taken seriously she has a pretty hard time. The men are expected to get serious, the women aren’t; so a lot of the women just fall off. There is none of that encouragement which is also a pressure to the men students. The encouragement that says: ‘This is serious business, come on, get to work.’ Somehow that edge is missing for women students. M.—In the statistics also printed in this issue, there is an indication that more men’s art is purchased and subsi- dised, through Canada Council and other organizations. Is it possible that due to the lack of encouragement less women are applying than men? S.— Yes. It’s a very pervasive set of expectations that we are dealing with and that’s what makes it so snakey to talk about because you are not only dealing with open- ing up opportunities, you are talking on another level with being able to make criteria for the buying of work, for the hiring of instructors and administrators and so forth. Across the board, these criteria are still male oriented. They should not all be thrown out the window of course, but women tend to have a different approach, and when you couple that with men in power you can easily feel helpless. For example, a woman applying for a teaching position — now | could be wrong, but as | understand it part of the criteria in this institution is some number of shows, other teaching positions, and some worldly recog- nition. Not very much about teaching approach, about the ability of the instructor to work with the student, to understand what they are doing and to help them and direct them. Women are given fewer shows, and are hired less often and for shorter periods of time. When you get into a competition on that level . . . | suppose that there are some women who have been in that situation enough times to not even bother. OE ate Pie Se aA} BIO one aw hould I start over wa oar Se) eS sal woe’ 2 eee ee ed a te eH we eB a ke - Kate Hemenway J =. ge = z > 4 /7/e0 Fe F a ee roo Sa eS w, M.—The vicious circle? One where women are not apply- . ing because they are not getting hired anyhow. Do you see any way out of this? S.— Ultimately, we are also depending on the intelligence and the consciousness raising of the men that are involved as well. M.—Men who quite often see this as a threat? S.— Well, yes. Again, part of the purpose of the Women’s Group is to make those issues public, and to allow people to deal with them as issues rather than some rumblings you have in your nether parts about ‘Hey, I’m being fucked over and | don’t understand why and there’s nothing | can do about it.’ | think that if we really start confronting it there is something we can do about it, in terms of just making it public. There are unwritten agenda, for example, that could be exposed. The old boys network is very much in evidence. M.—How would you go about setting up an old women’s network? S.—I think that’s beginning, but it’s going to be slow because there aren’t as many of us who have those kinds of connections yet. It’s coming, but slowly. M.—Have you figured out where those types of con- nections start? S.— | think a lot of it starts with each other. We are just going to have to become gallery administrators, and be- come more independant as artists. We will have to become more visible on our own. ‘M.—Put it this way. Do you have any idea how women in the college can develop an old girls network and aim at those power positions? S.— Do you mean just within the institution or as a general rule? M.—I see it as something that should start at the lower levels of the institution. S.— Well, it is starting now. There has been some really excellent response from the women in the school who see a need for change. : M.—What are you doing to access those positions of power that you need to access in order to build a network? To get a job as an administrator you need a reference, and so on. S.— That’s the kind of network that is being established simply by talking to each other, by making ourselves known to each other, knowing what we are looking for. That in itself is a big step. The students and women faculty have been having much more dialogue about those issues. They have really been kept quiet until very recently, but it’s starting to open up and come out..... The kind of polarization that is going to be a result of this; that already is a result of this; that is the hardest part, | think. M.—Do you see yourself setting up a totally separate structure; an old girls network versus the old boys net- work? S.— | hope not! Hopefully it can be integrated. It is going to depend on the attitudes of the men a lot, although not entirely. | think we have to stop depending on the atti- tudes of the men all the time to get what we need. Within an institution pressure can be put on places where it’s needed and if you have enough people to put that pressure on, that is one way of approaching it. Philosophically, | personally see the Women’s Movement aS a precurser to a much expanded consciousness for everybody. However, that is an extremely slow process. As it stands now, it’s mainly the women who see that there has got to be a change so it’s mainly the women who have to do it. Only when we are well on the way are men going to say, ‘Hey, what have I been missing.’ To be continued. HOW DO WOMEN AS ARTISTS DIFFER FROM MEN AS ARTISTS? DO WOMEN STUDENTS AND WOMEN ARTISTS TAKE THEIR WORK LESS SERIOUSLY THAN MEN DO? ARE THEY LESS SELF CONFIDENT THAN MEN? WHY ARE WOMEN ARTISTS SO POORLY REPRE- SENTED ON THE FACULTY? “The effect of penis-envy has a share, further, in the physical vanity of women, since they are bound to value their charms more highly as a late compensation for their original sexual inferiority. Shame which is considered to be a feminine cha- racteristic par excellence but is far more a matter of conven- tion than might be supposed, has as its purpose, we believe, concealment of genital deficiency. We are not forgetting that at a later time shame takes on other functions. It seems that women have made few contributions to the discoveries and inventions in the history of civilization; there is, however, one technique which they may have invented—that of plaiting and weaving. If that is so, we should be tempted to guess the uncons- cious motive for the achievement. Nature herself would seem to have given the model which this achievement imitates by causing the growth at maturity of the pubic hair that conceals the geni- tals. The step that remained to be taken lay in making the threads adhere to one another, while on the body they stick into the skin and are only matted together.’”” SIGMUND FREUD 1933 M.-Men are allowed to do it to become successful and women are allowed to do it to dabble? S.= Yes, and you can see that in the school statistics, at the undergraduate level, when women start to get up into the senior years; that is when it starts to get hard. | think that a lot of the time, men instructors expect their women students to be dilettantes and to fly off and ‘get married and do these things that are anathema to the myth of the artist. They don’t take them seriously and when a woman demands to be taken seriously she has a pretty hard time. The men are expected to get serious, the women aren't; so a lot of the women just fall off. There is none of that encouragement which is also a pressure to the men students. The encouragement that says: "This is serious business, come on, get to work.’ Somehow that edge is missing for women students. M.-In the statistics also printed in this issue, there is an indication that more men’s art is purchased and subsi- dised, through Canada Council and other organizations. Is it possible that due to the lack of encouragement less ‘women are applying than men? S.= Yes. It's a very pervasive set of expectations that we are dealing with and that’s what makes it so snakey to talk about because you are not only dealing with open: ing up opportunities, you are talking on another level with being able to make criteria for the buying of work, for the hiring of instructors and administrators and so forth. Across the board, these criteria are still male oriented. ‘They should not all be thrown out the window of course, but women tend to have a different approach, and when you couple that with men in power you can easly feel helpless. For example, a woman applying for a teaching Position ~ now I could be wrong, but as | understand it part of the criteria in this institution is some number of shows, other teaching positions, and some worldly recog nition. Not very much about teaching approach, about the ability of the instructor to work with the student, to understand what they are doing and to help them and direct them. Women are given fewer shows, and are hired less ‘often and for shorter periods of time. When you get into a competition on that level ... | suppose that there are some women who have been in that situation enough times to not even bother. Kate Hemenway 9 yo leg fe ek M.—The vicious circle? One where women are not apply: ing because they are not getting hired anyhow. Do you see any way out ofthis? ‘S.= Ultimately, we are also depending on the intelligence land the consciousness raising of the men that are involved as well M.=Men who quite often see this as a threat? S.— Wel, yes. Again, part of the purpose of the Women’s Group is to make those issues public, and to allow people to deal with them as issues rather than some rumblings you have in your nether’ parts about ‘Hey, I’m being fucked over and 1 don’t understand why ‘and there's nothing 1 can do about it."I think that if we really start confronting it there is something we can do about it. in terms of just making it public. There are unwritten agenda, for example, that could be exposed. The old boys network is very much in evidence. M.—How would you go about setting up an old women’s network? ‘S.=I think that’s beginning, but it’s going to be slow because there aren't as many of us who have those kinds ‘of connections yet. It’s coming, but lowly. M.=Have you figured out where those types of con. nections start? S.— I think a lot of it starts with each other. We are just going to have to become gallery administrators, and be- ‘come more independant as artists, We will have to become ‘more visible on our own. M.=Put it this way. Do you have any idea how women in the college can develop an old girls network and aim at those power positions? S.— Do you mean just within the institution oras a general rule? M.=I see it as something that should start at the lower levels ofthe institution. S.— Well, itis starting now. There has been some really excellent response from the women in the school who see need for change. : M.=What are you doing to access those positions of power that you need to access in order to build a network? To get a job as an administrator you need a reference, and S.= That's the kind of network that is being established simply by talking to each other, by making ourselves known to each other, knowing what we are looking for. ‘That in itself isa big step. The studentsand women faculty hhave been having much more dialogue about those issues, They have really been kept quiet until very recently, but it’s starting to open up and come out ..... The kind Of polarization that is going to be a result of this; that already i a result of thi; that is the hardest part, | think. M.=Do you see yourself setting up a totally separate structure; an old girls network versus the old boys net- work? S.— I hope not! Hopefully it can be integrated. It i going to depend on the attitudes of the mena ot, although not entirely. | think we have to stop depending on the att tudes of the men all the time to get what we need, Within an institution pressure can be put on places where it's needed and if you have enough people to put that pressure on, that is one way of approaching it Philosophically, | personally see the Women’s Movement as a precurser to a much expanded consciousness for everybody. However, that is an extremely slow process. As it stands now, it’s mainly the women who see that there has got to be a change so it's mainly the women who have to do it. Only when we are well on the way are men Boing to say, ‘Hey, what have | been missing.” To be continued. HOW DO WOMEN AS ARTISTS DIFFER FROM MEN. AS ARTISTS? DO WOMEN STUDENTS AND WOMEN ARTISTS TAKE THEIR WORK LESS SERIOUSLY THAN MEN DO? ARE THEY LESS SELF CONFIDENT THAN MEN? WHY ARE WOMEN ARTISTS SO POORLY REPRE. ‘SENTED ON THE FACULTY? 1c effect of penisenvy has a share, further, inthe physical vanity of women, sine they are bound to vaive their charms ‘more highly late compensation for their orginal sexual Infeioity. Shame which is. considered. to be a feminine cha ‘acteristic par excellence but is far more a matter of conven tion than might be supposed, has as its purpose, we believe, concealment of genital dficency. We are not forgetting that fat a ater time shame takes on other functions. It sms that ‘women have made few contributions to the dicoverles and Inventions in the history of evlzation; there is, however, one technique which they may have Uovented-that of plaiting and weaving. If that ls 30, we should be tempted to gues the uncon’: lous motive forthe achlevement. Nature herself would seem 0 have given the model which this achievement imitates by causing the growth at maturity of the pubic hal that conceals the gen tals. The step that remained tobe taken ly in making the threads lhere to one another, while on the body they stick into the ‘skin and are only matted together.” SIGMUND FREUD 1933